Jenn Bouchard on Debuting in the Pandemic, Short Stories and How to use Little Free Libraries For Marketing

Mindy:   Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see as a guest.

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Mindy: We are here with Jenn Bouchard, who is the author of First Course, which was published in 2021 by Touchpoint Press and has won 12 different awards. In addition, Jenn has published five short stories in literary journals, which I'm really looking forward to talking to her about because I personally find the short story market and literary journals to be one of the hardest things to crack. I actually spent quite a bit of time trying to do that in my mid-thirties and finally kind of gave up, but we can talk about that. Just to get started, why don't you tell us a little bit about your publishing journey?

Jenn: I did not seek this path at all. It sort of came out of nowhere when I was just finishing a major volunteer role. I had this big kind of gap in my life, this big hole. I was super busy. My kids were really young. I'm a full-time teacher, so I certainly had plenty to do, but I was looking for that thing for myself. And I think I want to try to write a novel. I really had no idea what I was doing. I started coming up with some ideas, but I started also going to a lot of author events. A lot of authors do come through the area. So First Course took me two and a half years to write a first draft. Gosh, I queried First Course for about ten months. I had a lot of really close calls with that. I had a number of agents who were like almost. It was so close I could kind of taste it. And so I noticed that there were a couple of small presses that were making a number of publishing deals with un-agented authors. And so I thought, "you know what? Maybe I'll just try and see if this is my path." So I noticed Touchpoint Press had been making a number of deals, and so I submitted to them in June of 2019. And within an hour, they asked for the full manuscript. And then four months later, I got a publishing offer from them. It's a journey I'm very grateful for.

Mindy: I love how you decided to go the route of going to author talks and author visits and author signings. I can say as someone that lives very rurally, I didn't have that option. I think that that is a really good way, especially if they're talking about their own journeys and how they got there. I think it can be very difficult to see someone that has quote unquote "made it" and realize that they used to be you, right? They used to be someone that didn't have an agent and didn't have a publishing deal or didn't even have a finished manuscript. I want everyone to realize that I don't forget that pain. No, I'm terrified every day. What if I can't write today? Or what if I don't have an idea? Or what if publishing tanks? What if AI starts writing all the books? There's always something to worry about. You had 14 awards. What are you winning out there? What are you out there doing?

Jenn: You know, there are a number of awards that are very much geared towards people like me. People who are with smaller presses.

Mindy: I'm going to share my experience. My book, A Madness So Discreet, won the Edgar Allan Poe Award in 2015. And that's a really big award. And that's a really big deal. And the people that love that book absolutely love that book. But the pie chart of people that love gothic historical fiction is small. That little wedge is very small. So people talk to me all the time about that book and they're like, "oh my God, I love that book." The people that love it, really love it. But it's like 15% of the reading population. So the sales aren't that great. People ask me all the time when there will be a sequel. They really want a sequel. It's set up for one. And I'm like, "you know, I would love to write one, but unfortunately I didn't sell well enough for my publisher to green light a sequel." And they're just like, "but it won the Edgar Allan Poe Award." And I'm like, "I know." And that was really cool. And it was super exciting for me, but awards don't necessarily drive sales. So did you find that there was any sort of like uptick in sales when you won these awards?

Jenn: I think it was more the feather in the cap. I think it helped me get a few book events, interviews, and things like that. I got accepted to a couple of book festivals. I would say I think it's helped with things like that. I think it also gave me the confidence to keep going. So you know, the book was published in June of 2021. I think the awards started coming in at a time when I needed a little bit of a push to show me that I was going down the right path. I think that helped a little bit with some of the imposter syndrome too.

Mindy: Those awards are really, really helpful to make you go, "oh yeah, I can do this." So tell me about being a teacher and a writer, because I know so many writers that are also teachers and teachers that are also writers.

Jenn: It is nice. I feel very fortunate to have something else. I don't talk about it much at school, but I did start the year just as, you know, telling them about myself. I did say, you know, I'm a published author. Every once in a while I'll have a student be like, "so you wrote a book, right?"

Mindy: I love working in schools, and I love working with kids. I like what you're saying too about having something else that you care about because writing is so solitary and it is so isolating and it is tough some days. So, talk to me a little bit about that balance. Not necessarily work and creative balance, but the balance of input versus output.

Jenn: If I've got a bunch of papers that I've got to get graded, the writing has to be put aside, you know, until I can get through that because I've got school deadlines. But I am getting a little bit better at looking at my time and being like, all right, I'm going to write for an hour and then I'm going to grade these papers for an hour. It used to be that the writing always got shoved to the side, and I'm really trying not to do that anymore. So I'm on a book a year plan. I know that for the next few weeks I have to work every day. You know, I have to really schedule the time. At least for me anyway, it's the first thing to get pushed to the side.

Mindy: I'm the same way, and it's my actual job. Just because it's hard. I end up in a "do as I say and not as I do" situation a lot because I will tell people, you know, you can't wait for inspiration. You can't wait to be in the mood to write. You can't wait for it to be the right time to write. You can't wait until you feel like writing. If you want to do this and you're serious about it, then you have to say, I am writing and I'm going to sit down. I'm going to put my butt in the chair, and I'm going to write. I say those things. Doing them is very different. I will do just about anything in order to avoid writing. I think too that other people give me a lot of energy. I am not currently working outside of the home. I haven't been for, I think, five or six years now. I don't get to pull energy from other people. You've got a family, and you're a mom. How do you balance any sense of guilt? As a female, we've got a lot of, if you're not putting your family first, what are you doing? How do you balance that?

Jenn: We bought the biggest calendar. It's this big glass calendar for the month, and everybody knows what everybody's up to. I think it helps that the kids are older now. They love the fact that mom's an author. That's super cool to them. So, they're old enough now that if I'm like I need to do this, they know that now. It was definitely a little bit tougher when they were younger, and I'd feel more guilt then. They've also seen mom get rejected. They've gotten to see that and they feel terrible for me, but they've also gotten to see me bounce back from it. So, I think it's been a really great way for them to grow up.

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Mindy: So talking about the short story market, and talking about the perseverance required there. I went through a period of time where I was like, "I'm going to try to use short stories as a way to supplement my income." Boy, was that fucking stupid. So...

Jenn: I've never made a dime.

Mindy: Okay. So tell me a little bit about that. Tell me about wanting to get yourself out there in short stories...

Jenn: Yeah.

Mindy: What your goal was, and if you do not see a monetary benefit from it, which I did not either, then what is the benefit, and why would you encourage someone to try it?

Jenn: So these are all fantastic questions. When I was waiting to see if First Course was going to get picked up anywhere by a publisher, I decided I was going to try to build a platform for myself. I was a complete unknown - a teacher. I'm a mom. I'm not the most interesting person. So I was like, well, if I could write some short stories and get them published, that will at least give me something. Because I was writing query letters. I had nothing to even say in the bio piece. And so I wrote a couple of short stories, and started sending them out there. I knew I probably wasn't going to get picked up by anywhere that paid anything. It was definitely more about building the platform. It took a while to get things accepted. Brat was the first story I had published and that was by Bookends Review. That got picked up at the very beginning of the pandemic. So I had started submitting that probably November of 2019. Another one that got accepted very quickly, like within five weeks. But the very first one I wrote took 11 months. I wanted to go with quality publications. That was really important to me. The places that I was published in were really lovely to work with. And I felt very proud to be with them.

Mindy: Would you kind of classify that in the same arena as winning the awards? Like, there's no monetary benefit, but it just kind of feels like an acceptance and maybe even a nod. Yes, you are a writer and you can do this.

Jenn: It's more validation, more things that are on my website now. So if someone enjoyed First Course and they're waiting for Palms on the Cape to be published next summer and they want to read something else I've written, they can read one of these stories. You've got a tremendous body of literary work. I don't have that yet, and so this is nice to be able to offer something else.

Mindy: It's kind of a weird place to be. I remember when my first book came out and people would reach out and be like, "oh my gosh, I loved your book," but you don't have anywhere else to point them yet.

Jenn: Right.

Mindy: How your marketing and how your approach to things changes a little bit too. You were talking about doing a Goodreads giveaway. I should still be doing those things. I am not utilizing all the tools that I used to, but I have hit a point with social media. I'm not sure it really works. And I am not interested in making TikToks, and I'm a writer because I'm a writer. I am not an actress. I don't mind being on camera. I like talking to people, speaking is part of what I do, but what I do is interact with people. That's what I do well. If you put a person in front of me, I can go. You put 800 people in front of me, I can go. You put a phone in front of me and you're like, pretend like you're talking to 800 people. Like I'm not good at it. Tell me about how you as an indie and as a debut author are using or not using social media.

Jenn: I launched in 2021. So I mean, it was a strange time. Most bookstores were not really having events. My launch was with a bookstore, but it was virtual. So I had to get very used to talking to a screen very quickly. I agree. I do much better when I can connect with people in person, but I ended up doing a lot of virtual events. I did have some, there were some outdoor events I was able to do in 2021, but it's really been combination of different things. Trying to collaborate with different authors. Number of authors from my debut year connected really well and because of the circumstances of debuting during a pandemic, we've had to be more creative in a lot of different ways. And so we've done some Instagram lives together. We're trying to build on all of that. But one of the things that I found, I don't know if it really drove that many sales, but I think it definitely got my name out there more, was that I started connecting with friends around the country and I placed copies of my book in little free libraries in every state. My friends or their friends, whoever I was able to find in all these different places would take a picture for me and send it to me. And then I would post it on my social media, and I would include the location. I would tag a local indie bookstore. So I was trying to make connections in these different geographic places. It was a way for me to make some inroads in some other locations. And so I do think it helped. I think my name is out there much more than if I hadn't done that.

Mindy: I love the idea of using little free libraries. For anybody that doesn't know little free libraries, you've probably seen them. They look like bird houses or little barns and they're usually just on posts and usually they'll be in the town square or the middle of a town or in front of a library. I actually put one up in my hometown here in Ohio, and I put it next to a coffee shop. I use little free libraries too as a way of promoting myself. It's wonderful. Every now and then I'll slip some books in there. Somebody will reach out to me over Facebook or Twitter and be like, "oh my gosh, your book was in here and it was signed. That's so cool." And I'm like, yeah. So whenever I have an event, if I'm in a town and I'm driving through and I spot a little free library, I will put one of my books in there. And whoever finds it, finds it. And it's a really cool little way to try to get yourself out there. I also recommend just if you're a person, like me, that has 30 to 50 books just sitting on top of their dresser, if you are reading something and you're not into it, or if you finished something and you know you're never going to read it again, take it to a little free library. Because I think they're so important. Like I said, I put one up in my hometown. I put it up at the beginning of the pandemic. Our library closed, and it's a really small, really rural town. That thing gets traffic.

Jenn: Yeah, they're awesome. They're creative. The stewards, the owners of them, they really put so much of themselves into the design and the upkeep in certain circumstances. And I really enjoyed connecting with those people too, the people who kind of manage those libraries.

Mindy: If you're interested, just check out Little Free Library, I think dot net? You can find locations for every little free library across the United States. And if you're interested in putting one up, you can buy a little free library from them so you don't have to make one if you don't want to. Little free libraries are fantastic. It's wonderful as a reader, but it is also great as a writer. Like you're saying, you can use them to kind of passively market yourself.

Jenn: I put bookmarks in them too. You know, talking about my next book. They're always gone whenever I check to see if the bookmarks are there. They're always gone.

Mindy: Oh yeah. Well, what better market for bookmarks than a place where people are going to pick up books? Everybody needs bookmarks. Yeah, that's perfect. So tell me a little bit about your second book. You've mentioned it a couple of times already, and then you had just informed me over email about some recent successes. 

Jenn: There is an audio book being made of First Course. Tantor Audio acquired the audio rights. So, that's really exciting. I always wanted it to be an audio book. So, hopefully early 2023 for that. And then Palms on the Cape will be published by Touchpoint Press, the same publisher that published First Course, in summer 2023. I don't have an exact date yet, but I'm really excited to work with them again. I got to work with my same editor again, which was fantastic. I'm super excited about it. It is about a owner of an upscale beach bar. She's on the verge of turning 40. She might be in love with her male best friend, but she won't admit that to herself yet. But everything's going fine, and then one day this group of people come into her beach bar and everything changes. It was an absolute blast to write. It was so much fun.

Mindy: I don't hear that often. So I'm really glad to hear that.

Jenn: I smiled the whole time I wrote the book.

Mindy: I was either tense or crying the whole time I was writing my 2024 release. But that's okay, because that's my brand. So tell me, is there anything that you are going to do differently this time around?

Jenn: You know, I'm really hoping that there will be more opportunities for events this time. And even if there aren't, I think I can make those opportunities because I know so many authors in so many places now, and we're just going to put together events ourselves. I think that that will be fun. So I feel more confident this time in my ability to make things happen. I'm excited that more book festivals will be in person and not virtual. And I've actually got a couple of things over the next few weeks. There are more opportunities now, which I'm excited about, but I think with the second book, there'll be more that I can do. I think that there are more possibilities.

Mindy: Last thing, why don't you let listeners know where they can find you online and where they can find your book First Course.

Jenn: I'm at JennBouchard.com. All my social links are easily available there. Instagram is where I spend most of my time, but I do have a presence on Facebook. First Course is available wherever books are sold, you can get it. It is available on all the major online retailers and then any bookstore. If it's not stocked there, they can order it for you.

Mindy:     Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.

Lorie Langdon On The Long Haul & Hard Grind of A Writing Career

Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see as a guest.

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Mindy: We're here with Lorie Langdon, who is the author of The Happily Never After Disney Villains series. I've known you for a long time. You're a fellow Ohio author. We've been hitting the same locations and the same audience and the same festivals since 2013. You were just saying right before we started recording that you actually have not had a US release since 2018, even though you have been working back to back to back to back. So, why don't you explain that statement.

Lorie: It's actually an interesting story, I think, for writers out there who may be going through a lull in their career because that's exactly what happened to me. 2018, Olivia Twist came out to all this fanfare. It was in Target stores in the US. I got a film production deal, and then it just didn't sell. It didn't sell the way that my publisher had anticipated that it would or hoped that it would. So they said, 'Okay, we can't publish any more books with you. Sorry." So then I kind of took a break. Reassessed. You know, what do I wanna do? During that time, I taught writing workshops in Ireland and China, and did a lot of soul searching. Came back from China and decided I needed to write fantasy. I need to step into the genre that I actually love to read. I finished a book called The Princess Trials, which is kind of a romantic fantasy young adult. I was really proud of it. Went out on sub and got rejection after rejection after rejection. Part of it, I think, was the timing. Romantic fantasy wasn't as big as it is now, and also I think because my sales from my previous book were killing me. This is something that a lot of people outside of the industry don't realize. That if you have a previous book that doesn't sell, that it can actually tank your career. So probably about a year and a half I was just kind of spinning my wheels. Out of the blue, my agent emails me and she was like, "Hey, would you be interested in writing a Disney villain series?" I about screamed when I saw it, and I said, "Yes, I would." Come to find out they had been searching for an author to write this Disney villain origin love story series. It's about the younger version of the Disney villains. The editor at Disney Publishing Worldwide read Olivia Twist and thought I would be perfect for it. So we talked and they offered me the series within a week. It was a super fast turnaround, under the caveat that these books are to release internationally. They'll be releasing in countries all over the world, but not in the US. And that is because there are two other Disney villain series that are being released on a regular schedule in the US, and they didn't wanna compete with those other series.

Mindy: Different threads in my life have coalesced lately. And you're talking about Olivia Twist, and I remember when Olivia Twist came out. It was a big deal, and there was this huge canvas across the Internet. Everywhere I went, I saw it, and it was everywhere. And your name was everywhere, and you had gotten a film deal. And it was just like, "Oh my god, Lorie hit it. Like Lorie's doing great." And then it's like, "No, actually, that was almost the end of me." Things can look amazing and just simply not be the case. I was actually having a conversation with Beth Revis, I hope she doesn't mind me name-dropping her, but Beth Revis wrote Across the Universe, which came out, I think in 2012. Huge deal, right? She writes for Star Wars now. She has a Star Wars book. I was having a conversation with Beth just about different things in the publishing industry, and we were talking about non-traditional ways to go out and make money. Anything that you can in order to keep some money coming in. Like you were saying, you went overseas and taught. Beth and I were talking about these things and she was like, she said, "you know, I hope you don't mind me asking," but she's like, "You know, you're talking about how you are always trying to quilt pieces together in order to make something happen, and I'm not naïve. I know the industry, but looking online, I would imagine that you're fucking killing it." And I'm like, "No."

Lorie: Yeah. Not at all.

Mindy: I am not killing it. So if you could talk a little bit about how there is a little bit of an Instagram filter on that.

Lorie: Yeah, I think it is the perception, and we have been taught to make sure that the perception is that our books are doing well in order to make readers want to jump on board. I don't think I've ever seen an author come out on social media and say, "Guys, my books just aren't selling. You know, they're tanking. You probably don't wanna read them." I think that we just really try everything we can, and we do love our own books, right? So it's genuine. The passion comes from our hearts. It's not that we're being fake. We do want everyone to read our stories, so we put that out there and we hope that it comes back to us. But something else I forgot, talking about non-traditional routes. In between when I finished The Princess Trials and I got the Disney contract, I took a write-for-hire job. And it was a woman who had a story that she had told her children all the years they were growing up, and she wanted to turn it into a young adult book. And so we worked together and created a plot, and I wrote that book. They paid me to write it, of course. It hasn't been published as of yet, but that kind of also opened the door to Disney because when they found out that I had already worked with someone in a write-for-hire scenario, they were 100 percent on board. I do encourage people to look for those non-traditional paths, and a lot of times they can end up taking us exactly where we wanna go.

Mindy: Absolutely. They can bolster some skills that you never expected to need, and then you have them, and it is another tool in your work belt. So I write underneath a pen name... enjoy doing it, but it is a grind. You and I were talking earlier before we started recording about the grind which I definitely wanna come back to. But I write underneath a pen name. I do have an editorial service that I run underneath my own name. But I also hire out underneath a different name where I work as a freelancer for an agency. I also do collaborative writing through them as well. I also work extensively in writing non-fiction book proposals. It is something that I found completely boring and had no skills for and was just like this is a part of publishing that I do not care about. And this agency head-hunted me, and they contacted me, they were like, "Hey, we think that you would be good at this, and we'll teach you how. You get the clients, and the money gets split." And I was like, "sure, I'll give it a try." And I like it. Once I've got a template - it's like I understand how a non-fiction book proposal works now. I can put one together with someone else's material fairly easily, and it's just really kind of cool to have this...

Lorie: Yeah. That's an amazing skill to have.

Mindy: Yeah. I can't advertise it because I do it underneath a different name. If you aren't NYT and you aren't actually killing it, and even if you are NYT, I know plenty of people that are NYT that also have day jobs. So there is no one indicator for, yes, this person is doing just fine.

Lorie: That is so true.

Mindy: You were talking about that constant drive. The mix of loving what you're doing and loving the work. Like you were saying, you loved your princess book that you wrote that ultimately didn't land anywhere. You end up with these books that you love that, quite frankly, no one else does. So I have a book that I wrote, I mean, shoot, I probably wrote this book in 2005, and I am getting ready to publish it underneath my pen name. I wanna publish it. I care. Nobody else cares, and that's a hard place to be creatively when you have something that you love, and literally no one else does.

Lorie: Yeah, and I'm still hoping that The Princess Trials finds a home now that Disney is becoming more of my brand. And you can tell by the title that even though this is a fantasy, The Princess Trials also... is kind of fairy tale. I think I could fit in with the Disney brand that I'm building. I'm still hoping, and I hope that - you should self-publish that book because it's something that I've thought about many times.

Mindy: Yeah. I am, and that's what I do underneath my pen name. It's all self-pubbed, and that particular racket is its own monster. Everything is different. Nothing that you learn from trad-pub, as far as marketing and finding your audience carries over, and it's always changing. It's so dynamic, and you gotta pay to play. I know people don't wanna hear that, but you got to spend money to make money. You gotta market. You have to pay for ads. Everything's out of your pocket, and it's painful. And there's no guarantees, but that's true of everything. You were talking about the trad world and Olivia Twist getting so much attention and then just not actually performing. I've had that happen too. Not to the extent as far as coverage and marketing. But I tell a lot of people, fellow writers, when we talk, my publisher does a great job of making it seem like I do really well and everyone loves me. Because I always tell fellow writers, if I showed you my royalty statements, you would fall over dead. I don't sell that well.

Lorie: Yeah. That's interesting. It does seem like you're doing amazing, Mindy.

Mindy: I just keep writing.

Lorie: Sometimes it's timing. Like Olivia Twist. If it had released right around the time of Bridgerton, I believe it would have been a huge hit because it is a romantic historical retelling. It's very difficult to compete when... especially when it's not a new release, it's not in bookstores anymore. It's hard to bring it back out of the dark.

Mindy: So hard. I do sell pretty consistently and well within the library and educational markets. General reading public, honestly, I don't think really is very aware of me. Within education and library, I do well. I've been around long enough that I am also just so thankful that I get to do this for a living. I'm continuously grateful for everything that my publisher does for me and that they quite honestly keep me around. But I think that's where the perception of success comes in my world is simply because I produce consistently. It may not ever break out. I've never had a movie deal. I've never had a TV show. I've had rights sold. But as you know, that doesn't really count. But I can write consistently. And I sell pretty consistently.

Lorie: It's the author career. Typically, I know a lot of people who published a book or maybe two, and then they're out. But then if you want to make this your life-long career, I do believe it's consistency, and very few of us have that breakout moment. It's what we all hope for.

Mindy: Yes, it is. It's the pie in the sky.

Lorie: And everyone is like, "Hey, Lorie, you've made it. You're writing for Disney." It is amazing because I've always been a Disney girl. I used to sit in my bedroom and, I'm outing my age right now, but I would listen to those records that you have the book with and dream up additional stories for these characters. That's come full circle for me, and I have been given tremendous creative freedom at Disney. They've said, "Okay, we wanna write a first love story for these villains when they're young." Then they just said, "Go." And so I was able to do that for all of these books, and then they do have to go through levels of approval. So my editor and then Disney Animation Studios, as well as Live Action Studios on some of them, have had to give input. But typically it's very small changes that they ask me to make. There is an exception. So I just finished writing Captain Hook's story. When I submitted that outline Live Action Studios came back and said, "Why isn't Peter Pan in this book?" And, "We wanna see James Hook's first meeting with Peter Pan, and we wanna know why they don't like each other so much." And I about fell over. I'm like, "What? You want me to write this?"

Mindy: That becomes cannon now, correct?

Lorie: I believe so. Now, these books are not releasing in the US. I do have hopes that they will come here some day, but they are releasing all over the place. I just got word yesterday that Vanessa, which is Ursula/Vanessa, the first book in the series, is releasing in India, which that hadn't previously been part of the plan. They're coming out in Japan, in Australia, in New Zealand, France, the UK, Turkey. My US readers are like, "Why?" They're crying. They're like, "Why can't I get these?"

Mindy: Is there a way for them to get them?

Lorie: They can order Vanessa from Book Depository. The English version is on there, and it's around $23, but that includes the shipping from Australia.

Mindy: We were talking before we started recording about the grind, and about how you can hit a point where you are just working. The magic is a little bit gone. There may not be love in your heart. Very few of us are running towards our laptops first thing in the morning - bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, and like I am gonna write today. There have been times when I felt like that, but it is rare. Especially lately. You and I are both talking about how we supplement our traditional income through different routes - teaching and non-traditional publishing routes. You hit a point where it is just a grind, and it is emotionally and mentally exhausting.

Lorie: I wrote four books for Disney back to back. I had six months to write each book. They're fantasy. They're not just little romance books. They all have fantasy magic. Huge plots. And especially with Captain Hook, he was one of my dream characters to write. And I wrote an origin story about him and Peter Pan, as I talked about, but it's mainly about him. And I feel like I poured everything into that book, my whole heart and soul into that book, and then I didn't even take a day off before I started the next one - which is the evil queen. I don't feel as connected. And I wanna feel connected. I wanna feel excited because this is a privilege to be able to do this, and I really am excited to be able to do it. But at the same time, I can't fight that burnout. I'm gonna get 600 words down. I'm gonna get 800 words down, or I'm gonna get a 1,000. If I get a 1,000, that's a good day. It's just not flowing out of me because I've kind of hit that creative wall. When you're on back-to-back deadlines, you just don't have that luxury. It's like, I feel as if, as a creative person, I really would prefer to have time to step back between each book to fill that creative well with nature and great movies and family and friends and experiences. And then when you come back at it, you come back at that next book, you're fresh. This is what I do, but I haven't really had that. And at the same time, when I think, "Do I want that?" Because I went through that long stretch of time where I did not have a book contract. And it was scary and upsetting, and I questioned whether or not I was going to continue in my author career. So having this contract is security. So you kinda have to balance those two things.

Mindy: Emotionally, it is a hell of a weight. I feel the same way. I grew up on a farm. I grew up bailing hay and getting stepped on by animals - throwing manure around. So the fact that I get to write books for a living is ridiculous, right? The fact that I sit down in front of a laptop and move my fingers and I get paid for that is just stupid to me. Sometimes if my publisher sends me on tour, they're like, "We've got you here, here, here and here. You've got two events on this day. Don't have a break in between. You don't have a day off. Is that okay?" And I'm always like, "Yes." You're asking me to put myself in front of people and talk about myself, or my book. This is not hard. Yes, I can do this, guys. And people are always like, “Man, you're such a workhorse.” I am, but I too have hit a point where it's like, man... why aren't words coming? It's not writer's block. I know what needs to happen next. It's not that I don't know what happens next. It's that I literally don't wanna sit down and work because it's hard. I'm tired. I don't have that love anymore. Different projects hit different points emotionally. Right now, I'm on a super tight deadline and it is my own fault. I have to, I absolutely must write today, and I have to write probably 3,000 words every day for the next four weeks, if I am gonna hit this deadline. There aren't options. There isn't... "Oh, you deserve a break. Go get ice cream." No. You're writing. Shut up, right? I did it to myself so this is not poor me. You just get so worn out and you feel it emotionally, mentally, and physically.

Lorie: And I think though, if you want to be an author, you have to put on your big girl panties and you have to do it. And it's like... I think so many people that I've known over the years are just maybe not able to.

Mindy: Yeah.

Lorie: For whatever reason. Whether it's outside influences, their life is too stressful, or they have another job or whatever it may be, internally, they're just not driven. But if you want to be an author that's published consistently, you have to be able to sit down and write. You have to put your butt in the chair and you have to do it, and it's like... sometimes you don't feel it. Sometimes it's not fun. But that's okay. This is what we do.

Mindy: If 43-year-old Mindy was talking to 33-year-old Mindy, and was like, "Hey, guess what. You write for a living now, and you're able to do this consistently. And you've got contracts coming, and you're self-publishing. And you've got these great little side gigs, and everything is going really well. But you're tired." I would be like, "Who fucking cares?"

Lorie: Yeah, right.

Mindy: Oh, poor you. Poor 43-year-old Mindy. Shut up, right?

Lorie: Get it together. Yeah, I mean, writing for Disney, it's like, if I could tell my younger self that I was going to do that, it would have changed my whole perspective on myself and my future. I wish we could go back and whisper that. It would take away so many insecurities and the fact that I grew up thinking I was not good at anything. When you get in a place, you don't wanna ever take it for granted, but I think it's hard not to sometimes. Sometimes when we're in one of these slumps, it's like, the work really is not good. But recently I sent the book I'm writing, The Evil Queen, to some friends and I was like, "Okay, what is wrong with this book? You guys have to help me." And they're like, "It's great. It's wonderful. It's you." You're just... It's me mentally, just not connecting with it, even though the words are coming out and flowing. Emotionally, creatively, I'm just not feeling it.

Mindy: I feel that way with pretty much every book I write. While I'm writing it, I am convinced it is shit. I remember writing The Female of the Species and being like, "This one's getting phoned in. You're not doing it. This is not working. This one's dead in the water. You flubbed it. You're just gonna have to get this one out and then move on to the next thing." And it's my best-selling book. The Female of the Species  is the book that people know me for. So yeah, you don't know it. When you're in it, you have no clue if what you're doing is good or not, and generally, I just think it's terrible.

Lorie: When I was writing Hook, I was so like in it, and I knew it was good. And that feeling is a high. Those books and characters that flow out of us and that we connect to... It's such a rarity these days. That then I go on to something else and I'm like, "Okay, I'm not connecting. This sucks." But it's not the case.

Mindy: Well, and the disparity between how you feel about it at the time, or while you're writing it, and how it performs can be a little bit of a gut punch. When I was writing my fantasy series, Given to the Sea and Given to the Earth, I was like, "Oh dude, you're killing it. These are good. You're a fantasy writer, right?" Literally, no one has read those books - like my mom and my editor and my mom didn't even really like them that much.

Lorie: That's how I feel about Gilt Hollow, which is a murder mystery that I wrote. A young adult suspenseful kind of romantic mystery that everyone in my family and friends, who have read all of my books except for the Disney books, they're like, "This is your best book. This book is amazing. I love this book." And no one read it. No one read it. Didn't go.

Mindy: It isn't a reflection of the quality of the books. You were talking earlier, it's just timing. And I am not a fantasy author, I just happened to have two fantasies in me. So I wrote them and the fantasy market was like, "Who are you?" And my readership was like, "What is this?"

Lorie: Yeah, that's true. It's like me with the contemporary mystery. They're like, "What is this?" Because I just had this mystery in me, and I'm really a fantasy writer.

Mindy: So we were talking about just writing in general, and that burnout feeling. And how sometimes we do feel super connected to something that we're writing, and sometimes we're just not. Sometimes we are just plugging and we are writing words and we are not feeling it. When it comes to what I always call the shiny new idea - the bright, shiny, new idea - those always feel so good when they come, and you're like, "Yes, this is magic." Though once you start trying to write it and you touch it, it does get tarnished a little bit because it's never going to be what you have in your head. You're just getting as close as you can with your words. Can you talk a little bit about where you get your ideas from? 'Cause that's such a common question.

Lorie: That is the most common thing that people ask me who are not authors, obviously, and it's very difficult to answer because inspiration comes from everywhere. For example, I was originally signed to write three books for the Villain series, which was Vanessa, Gaston, and Yzma from Emperor's New Grove, which was hilarious, by the way. It was so fun to write. And as I was finishing up Yzma, I was watching a baking show, and this woman made a cake that was a pirate scavenger hunt cake. There was a little like icing ball that you drop into a tunnel and it opens up a cave that opens up into a waterfall and then the treasure comes out. And for whatever reason, I saw that and I was like, "I'm gonna write Captain Hook's story." I called my editor. I said, "Hey, I know our contract is ending, but I have this amazing idea." And she's like, "Yep, you're gonna do that." And it was like cake. It can be anything. I think when we get that inspiration though, it's so exciting. And it's not, for me these days, not super common. How about you?

Mindy: It is random. I think part of it is just the jaded end of being in the business for so long. I'll have an idea - "cool idea. I like that." But it's not in your market. It's not what you write. The audience is different. Dead on arrival. You don't write that. I had an idea for a middle grade. It would have been in verse and it would have been highly cloaked so that only the person that needed this book would understand. I had an idea about writing a book about a girl that was being abused by her older brother, because it happens, and people don't wanna talk about it. And I had it. I spent like three days walking around cleaning the house, and I'd be like, "Here's a phrase. Here's a phrase. Here's an idea." And I was just living in this little girl's head so completely, and I never wrote a damn word down. I never did anything with it because I've never written anything in verse. There's been chapters in some of my books that are in verse, but I've never written in verse. And my editor has said to me before, "I'm not sure that I would even know how to edit something in verse." Number two, I don't write for middle grade. That would be a big leap. Number three, content. And especially where we are at right now with the general public and schools and the education market, which, as I said before, which is where I sell well, like school and libraries, being heavily watched. And all these eyes on it and watch dogs, and it's like, "Yeah, sure, you're gonna write a book about a fifth grader being sexually assaulted. That's gonna get published." So it was like there were three things. There was market. There was a format, and there was public perception at the time. And I was like, "This is what I wanna write. I am on fire. This is in my head, and it won't get out and I wanna write this." And I never even bothered to write a single thing down because...

Lorie: That's so hard.

Mindy: I know. I knew it was pointless. I knew it was a waste of my time.

Lorie: It does feel like though something like that could come back and the timing could be right, even though middle grades, something that your readership would latch on to.

Mindy: I agree, and I had all of these thoughts. And it was like I had this thing that I was just kind of living for three or four days, and it really had a hold of me, you know how that goes.

Lorie: And it could be important. It could be a really important story to tell.

Mindy: But at the same time, it's like I have actual deadlines. I've got things I'm writing under this pen name. I got online classes that I wanna put together. I've got editorial work waiting on me. You can make money on this, this, and this. But right now, your time is better spent doing the things that you know can work.

Lorie: A similar thing is when there's something that you did pour your heart and soul into. It was a great idea. You wrote it, and then something similar is out in the market, like the same time. That actually is happening with Hook because there is a book that just came out with Disney, and it's part of the Villain series where the movie is told from the villain's perspective in a book. I knew that Hook had a version of that coming out this year. I have not read it, but the blurb says that it is James Hook's origin story, which is completely out of format for that series. And it's exactly what I wrote and exactly what I was told to write. So I wonder, what is the future of this? And it was a little heartbreaking. You know, those things are like our babies, right? The books are really part of me, I feel like.

Mindy: There are only so many ideas. There are only so many ideas, and there are only so many plot lines. Publishers Marketplace will be like so and so sold this, and it's a gender flipped Count of Monte Cristo. And you're just like, "Well, okay. I guess I'm not writing that."

Lorie: Yeah. Well, I have kind of a similar situation with Doon, which is my first series that I co-write with Carey Corp. And it's a re-imagining of Brigadoon, and it's set in Scotland. Fantasy. It's not time travel, but the girls do travel to a mystical land. The portal only opens once every hundred years. But right when those books were coming out, Outlander started releasing their television series. Well, I had read Outlander back in the early 90s, and it was an inspiration for me. But it was so old, like nobody cared about Outlander anymore. I named my prince Jamie, as an homage to Jamie Fraser, because he's one of my favorite characters of all time. But my character was worlds different than Jamie Fraser. But I still to this day get people saying, "This is just a knock-off of Outlander." And if the TV series hadn't come out, this never would have been an issue. And it's so dissimilar, but that's kind of what happens.

Mindy: I know. When The Female of the Species came out, you know how many people were like, "Oh my God, have you seen Hard Candy?" No, I haven't seen Hard Candy, and they're like, "Well, because that's what your book is." I'll never watch it because I'm tired of hearing about it. So last thing, why don't you let listeners know where they can find you online and where they can get some of your books. I know that your recent releases aren't necessarily available in the US, but you definitely have other things available.

Lorie: Yeah, you can find me on Amazon, and all of my books, that are not the Disney Series, are available on Amazon still. And actually there's a promotion right now that the first book in the Doon series is free. So the e-book is free right now. Our publisher decided to bring it back out because it's something we feel is a classic. So that is a free option for you to read one of my books. And then Vanessa, as I said, can be found on Book Depository and probably Gaston soon as well. You can find on Instagram at Lori Langdon underscore author, and that's basically where I hang out.

Mindy:     Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.

Kathleen West on Writing Unlikeable Characters

Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: We're here today with Kathleen West, author of Are We There Yet? One of the things that I find so fascinating is that writers who are also teachers are really common. And I know just from my group of friends that are also writers, and teachers that are aspiring writers, that it's really kind of an intersection that people don't necessarily realize is pretty prevalent. So would you like to just talk about that and how working with students and being in the school system can be a great source of creativity?

Kathleen: That is an awesome way to put it. I do think that working in schools is a fantastic source of creativity and I think it comes from a lot of places. First of all, it's just incredibly inspiring to work with kids of all ages. I have taught third grade through 12th grade and I love different things about each grade level. And one thing I really love is the fact that kids just believe that they can do things and they believe that they can be creative and make great art and great writing and that's super inspiring. And then also, I think that working with kids and families just gives me so much empathy and so much inspiration for my own characters. You get this inside, look at so many different families and how they work and how they love each other in the conflicts that they face, and it is this incredible privilege. And you just get to see the inner workings of a lot of different kinds of people and how they're the same and different. And I think that's been huge for my development as a writer over time.

Mindy: Definitely. I can say for myself. I was attempting to find an agent for almost 10 years and one of the things that really tripped me up in the query process was that hairy little bio paragraph. I never had anything to say. I had no publishing credits. I had an english degree. But I mean, you know, who doesn't? So it was just I didn't have anything to say, that was really like, yeah, I am qualified to do this thing. You want to represent me. I am a writer. I started working in high school as a librarian and I was attempting to write adult fiction and I was sitting at my desk one day in my office and all of a sudden I was like, you know you're working in a library with teenagers. If you switch to YA if you decided to write YA your bio could read: Mindy McGinnis is a high school librarian who spends 40 hours a week with her target audience and knows the market intimately. As soon as I have that bio, it was like a key that just unlocked the door. It is a big reason why I started writing YA. I was just being around the kids and seeing the needs and the gaps in the market. And of course you actually are writing for the adult market, but you're writing about people that are in this space, a heavily teen focused area. So why don't you tell us a little bit about the book Are We There Yet? and how teens and Children are a focus in the plot? 

Kathleen: Someone asked me just recently like, how do you get the voice of the kids right? Because I do have teen characters in both of my novels. It's just being with them, like listening to how they talk and how their brains work. And in my new book, the main character is Alice and she's in her late thirties and feels like she's kind of entering a sweet spot in her life. Her youngest child is seven and she's not changing diapers, her career is kind of taking off, she feels like she can put more energy there now that her kids are older and then she discovers that her daughter is way behind in reading at school and at the same time that her son has engaged in some bullying behaviors at the middle school. 

Those behaviors cause conflicts with her longtime friends and impact her reputation in her community in all kinds of different ways. So it's about kind of how that conflict plays out for her and impacts all areas of her life. So teens behaving badly is a big part of the book and also the idea about teen identity and parent identity. In my own life, I've seen so much conflation of that, like I think parents tend to take credit for their kids successes and then also are blamed for their failures. I don't think that's super healthy. So I wanted to look at how kids choices can be kids choices and adult choices can be adult choices and everyone can be a good person regardless.

Mindy: Talking about social media and about kids and of course, bullying. I grew up in the 90s and bullying was there, it was a problem, but today it is very different. It has a different face on it and this is something that I had the experience of as I moved through growing up in a world that was suddenly changing, very much transitioning into a digital world. So I started really using the internet and things like that right at the end of my high school career and then going into college. For the most part, if you wanted to use a computer, you went to a computer lab, students didn't have their own laptops. If you had a computer in your room, it was a desktop and you were lucky and other people would borrow it. Social media didn't really exist yet. But things were changing.

At the time I was using AOL instant messenger to stay in contact with my friends that were still in high school or friends that were in college. We were separated. And you know sometimes in the evenings I would get in conversations with them or we would have group chats. And I remember a friend of mine who was younger, she was still in high school, we got into an argument over AIM. She said some pretty nasty things to me and then just logged off and I was upset because it was someone I was pretty close with. And so I was also messaging with a friend of mine, a guy that was younger than me and still back at high school in the area. And I was like, hey, you know, she said these things that really hurt my feelings and I will never forget. He's like, that is not like her. And he said, I think it's really weird. He's like, I'm not sure how healthy this Instant messenger is because it's a lot easier to say something mean to someone because you don't have to say it to their face. And you don't have to see the emotional reaction and the pain that you caused. And this was in 1999 and he was like, I don't know if this is a good idea.

Kathleen: He was really ahead of his time there and clairvoyant about the future. I mean I remember this too, so I must be just a couple of years older than you are, I'm going to be 43. 

Mindy: I'm gonna be 42 tomorrow. 

Kathleen: Hey, oh my birthday's next week. So we're really close. So same thing like I didn't grow up with this, I did have AIM instant messenger, but I have a sister who's eight years younger than I am and she was really enmeshed in AIM at a younger age. And I remember some of the conversations that she had and these little snide remarks that her friends would make over messenger that you know, I agree they would not say in person. And I think the trouble is now that the permanence of those, you know, you could have a flip thought or flip comment in person and it goes away. But then you have a social media post or a text that somebody screenshots and it stays around for such a long time. 

I do think teens are getting a little more savvy about that. My kids are Almost 17 and 12 at the moment and my older child especially has gotten more careful about all the details that he tells me about his life. So I used to feel like I had a pretty complete picture and now I know that there are things that I'm probably missing, which is, I'm sure appropriate as he gets older. But it seems like the kids are doing a better job of forgiving each other for these moments of impulsivity. 

The reality of living with social media has made them be a little bit more tolerant and forgiving of each other. I'm hopeful. I also think that they both went through a phase maybe like in fifth grade when they got their school email addresses and had access to google messenger and stuff where it was really huge, or everyone got their phones and there are these large group chats and then it seems like that has fallen away by the time they're in late high school. And they are doing some more 1 to 1 or 1 to 3 communications, less broadcasting of their inner feelings to large groups. So I don't know, I'd have to read some experts like maybe the Pew Center or something has some new studies on how teens are changing their attitudes about social media. But for the moment knock on wood, both my kids seem to be in a pretty good place with it.

Mindy: It is interesting to me how of course we're talking about the change and how it is easier for teens to have their private lives and of course that is good in a way. They are changing. They are growing, they are becoming their own true selves. I always think about when I was a teenager and you know, if you wanted to call a boy or your friends, but especially if you were like, you know, I want to call Bill and I want to say, hey, hey -  you want to go out sometime or how are you doing? And it was like I had to call his house and I had to more than likely talk to one of his parents first. 

Kathleen: It was a miracle that any of that actually got done. I mean, but I guess that's just the way it was, it seems horrifying now that you'd have to do that. But yes, that was absolutely that way. There is more gatekeeping on that kind of behavior for sure. 

Mindy: I think it was also healthy because it made you grow up, you had to know how to speak to an adult. I need to be polite to his mother and introduce myself in order to get access to him, right? People always complain about kids on their phones. But you know, it's no different than tying up the phone line and being on the landline for four hours and chatting. It's just that they're doing it kind of spasmodically over text. 

Kathleen: I think that's right. And then also I tried to deal with this a little bit in my book, but I think it's tempting for parents to think like, oh, well I'm going to solve the social media problem by not giving my child a phone until much later. I admire that impulse. The tricky thing that I found in my teaching job is that you end up isolating your child. It's just much more likely that that kid is not going to know the plans that the group is meeting here or everyone's going to go to this basketball game or whatever. So you have to kind of look at what your community is doing as you make your parenting choices or else you can have some unintended consequences about how much access your child has to social group. Which is a really interesting part of the puzzle I think for parents making decisions. 

Mindy: One of the things that your book really focuses on is about you know, making mistakes and we all make them. But as you said now, there's an element of permanence to our mistakes. I of course live and work and move in the YA audience in social media and there's always something going on. We call it author jail. There's always someone in author jail. Yes, like someone made a mistake or misspoke and of course, we do need to make those mistakes in order to learn from them. If social media had been around when I was a teenager, I would be mortified, I would be mortified by the things that I said. The things that I did. I mean, you know, I was a teenager and teens make mistakes. That's how you learn, that's how you become an adult. And they are living in this world where those mistakes, the permanence of them, makes it very, very hard to live down as you mentioned earlier. So if you want to talk a little bit about the role that mistakes play in your book.

Kathleen: There are a lot of really big mistakes, mistakes in this book. And when my husband first read it, he was like, she just keeps making bad choices and I'm so stressed and I'm like, well, you know, when's the last time you read a book about just a nice person and nothing happens to them? So there's going to be mistakes in the book. But one thing I like about this book is that everybody makes mistakes. There's three generations of characters, you know, a son, a mom and a grandmother in all three are really fumbling around and making some pretty big mistakes. The mistakes are not limited to the teen landscape for sure. 

And in fact, one of the things that I enjoyed writing, the mom makes a pretty big. She has basically like this really big public temper tantrum in front of her kids and that changes how her son sees her. Like humanizes her in a pretty big way because he hadn't really been privy to her mistakes before or she had managed to control her behavior so that her kids didn't see her mistakes and once he does see that she's fallible. Then he's able to kind of connect with her and they're able to move forward. 

So I think mistakes play a really important role helping that teen and adult connection move forward. One thing I was interested in exploring our friendships of convenience and the women, the mom friends in the book, became friends at kindergarten round up and then just kind of stayed friends throughout their lives. They don't necessarily have a ton in common anymore. And when their kids are making these mistakes, then they're able to kind of re examine their friendships and kind of figure out what they want from those relationships as adults. I guess the mistakes propel things forward now that I'm thinking about it.

Mindy: When we talk about fiction and we talk about people making mistakes and sometimes, you know, you'll read reviews where people are like, oh this main character was so hard to identify with. She was always making the wrong decisions or I just wanted to shake her. How many people in real life do you feel that way as well? People make mistakes. I remember 10 years ago, the Dystopian heyday of YA literature, that was always a common question - why do you think dystopian literature is so popular? What's the draw of dystopian literature? And I was like, well, do you want to read a utopia? Everybody's happy and everything is fine and there are no problems. It's a perfect world. There's no story.

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Kathleen: You mentioned likability. That's something that's come up a lot in reviews of this book and some people say I didn't really like any of the characters. I feel differently of course, I like them all and I've spent so much time with them getting in their heads. I mean, I would make different decisions than many of them a lot of the time, but in terms of liking them or admiring them or understanding who they are and what they're trying to do, I'm on their team for sure. Likability is an interesting concept for characters, and the writer. I really like to explore all facets of a personality. So I kind of lean into the mistakes or the flaws. I write in the third person point of view, close. So I get into their heads and you're hearing their thoughts and feelings and not every thought or feeling is flattering. I try to go for realistic, so I think 100% likable might not be as realistic as the intermittently likeable character. 

Mindy: It's not. There is no one that you like 100% ofl the time and agree with all of their choices, even your best friend. Like there will be times when you're just like, nope, I can't, I don't want to be around you or hear your voice right now. No, going into college, they always say don't be a roommate with someone that was a friend in high school, it will ruin your friendship and I'm here to tell you, that's the truth. When you're living with someone that you're already intimate with. It's just like, Hey, fix your shit. You realize how much you do or do not actually like this person. 

And you talk about friendships of convenience. I love that topic because I live in a very, very rural area and I grew up in a school that graduates less than 100 kids every year. You don't have a ton of options when it comes to friends. You are with the same people from kindergarten through senior year. And oftentimes your parents are friends with their parents and those people that are kind of chosen to be your friends. That is just kind of a decision that is made for you in many ways. And that's something that really changed drastically for me when I went to college. It's like, oh, suddenly there's this whole pool of people that I can choose from to be friends with.

Kathleen: I live in Minneapolis and I lived in the metro area here for my whole life, so in an urban setting. But I went to a very small Catholic all girls school, so there were 62 girls in my class and I definitely felt like at the end of high school I was like, I'm ready for a break from these people. But then as years have gone by, I find myself feeling a really big affinity with those women and when I connect with them on social media or whatever, many of them have been hugely supportive of my books. I feel this connection. It's almost like we're cousins, like second cousins or something like that. Like family, we have this kind of shared understanding of childhood. I do feel a really large connection to the women that were in my high school class even though I didn't maintain close friendships with them, from the time that I was 18 to the time that I was 40. I find myself now thinking like, Oh, I'd really like to hang out with those people. 

Mindy: The closeness, it is a family atmosphere that doesn't necessarily go away. It just changes into these relationships that you can pick them back up at any time. Like a family member. My class, so I graduated in 97. Same situation. You know, we were together from kindergarten through senior year. I can look at any class photo from any grade name, everyone's first name, last name, sometimes, even their parents, too. Like that's just the way it is. The closeness of that bond is difficult if not impossible to recreate.

My class, unfortunately, we've already lost three people from class. It's too early. It's too early. So we have a Facebook group that's just our class of 1997 and we gather there and we recently lost someone and, and so it's just, we would just tell stories, really. Do you remember when he did this? Or do you remember this? Do you remember that? I don't have that with anyone else. I don't have that formative bond. 

You can post on Facebook, something about something going on, you know, in the community, People did leave. I'm still here. Sometimes, you know, it'll be like vague Facebook posts or something, not from me, I don't do that, but I'll get like four or five messages that day like, hey, what's going on? You know? So it's just like, oh, well, let me tell you, I'm still here and I still know everything that isn't necessarily out there widely in the public knowledge. Even people that have left and people that have gone away and created a whole life somewhere else. They're like, oh, what's going on? Like I need to know what's up home. It is a very close bond, but I don't have anyone from that time period that I speak to like every day. I'm sure you can hear it all the ding, ding dings, those are my friends from college.

Kathleen: I kind of have the same situation with my small high school, but it's kind of funny now that I've been writing more full time, I've been looking for part time, temporary teaching jobs. You mentioned you sub also, that's kind of what I'm looking to do about long term something. I did it this fall in a third grade classroom, which was just super fun. And my old high school that I went to with a small catholic high school emailed and said would you be interested in teaching a couple of sections of American lit? And I'm like, absolutely. So I'm actually going there on Monday to talk to them about how that might look for next fall and it's the first time I've been back in the building in at least 10 years. I remember the last time I was there, one of my classmates was a young alumna of the year. But it was 10 or 15 years ago that she was, so I'm just very excited to see what the school looks like and think, I mean to think about working there after all this time is just really fun and fascinating too. I mean one of the fun things about being a writer is just infusing all these aspects of your past into your present works. 

Mindy: I do substitute and it's in the same district that I grew up in. Kind of funny actually the other day just speaking about being in touch with people from the past. School's out and I was just hanging out, sitting at my desk, waiting for the parking lot to empty and someone had posted on my Facebook group from high school. Hey, do you remember the time someone pulled a prank on, on a teacher. Do you remember when so and so did this? And I posted back and I was like, yeah. And funny enough, I'm actually sitting in that classroom right now. 

Kathleen: I mean that is so awesome. I love that. And I just love working in schools too, because you're part of other people's formative memories that they're going to be carrying through their whole lives to. It's a special job, I think.

Mindy: Absolutely. I will be starting a long term sub position in April for 5th grade english class. And I had really resisted going below high school level just because I wasn't really necessarily comfortable with the age group, wasn't necessarily comfortable with myself and my humor and how things work in that environment. Well then with the advent of COVID and they needed a substitute so badly, I was like, okay, you put me wherever. And I really warmed up to the age group. The teacher that I am taking her place is going to be having a baby, so she's been in and out for doctor's appointments, things like that. So they put me in that classroom when she's out, so I can learn that group and so have something like a relationship now. I had kind of a long day on Monday, you know what it's like? It was the time change plus the kids had four days off. So it was like a zoo. It was just a long day. Nobody was bad. Just everybody was wired. I was standing in the hallway after the bell had rung and the kids were leaving, they were going to get on the bus and then one boy walked past me, he turned around and came back and he said, thank you for teaching me today.

I was like you are welcome and I will come back and I will be here every day as much as I can. Like it's just those little moments. I've been standing there thinking how the hell am I gonna do this long term? And then the one thing, and I'm like yes I will be here, I will be here for you whenever you need me.

Kathleen: I started teaching elementary school just a couple of years ago, right before I ended up selling my first book and leaving teaching full time. But I was ready for a change. And as my teaching career progressed I became more and more interested in global citizenship and teaching about being a good community member and like the whole child basically. So I was like, well what better way to think about that kind of formative experience than in an elementary room. Being down with the little kids really made sense to me. And they do like they just give so much of themselves and before COVID times at the end of the day sometimes I would say like okay, handshake, hug or high five? Your choice, as the goodbye. And some kids would be like, I need all three and I'm like, oh yeah, you know, little kids will just tell you, I need, I need all three today. You know, I've loved all the age groups. Right now. I'm looking forward to teaching some older kids again. I'd really like to teach some writing classes to talk and think about the things that I've learned in writing my last couple of books, you know, with some older students. So you know, it changes over time. 

Mindy: Last thing, why don't you let my listeners know where they can find you online and where they can find the book, Are We There Yet? 

Kathleen: Are We There Yet is available wherever books are sold. And actually the audio is really great. If your podcast listeners like audio books, I just started listening to it. It's narrated by Therese Plummer. She did an excellent job and so I recommend that format as well. I'm most active on Twitter and on Instagram. On Twitter, I'm at K West books and on Instagram I'm at Kathleen West Writes and I love hearing from readers so feel free to drop me a line and I'll write you back. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.