Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com.
Mindy: This summer I'm adding a co-host, fellow author Kate Karyus Quinn. We'll be doing a series that focuses on hybrid and indie authors. If you're thinking of going the Self Pub route we've got authors who found success with six figure sales, as well as authors who are just starting out on the road to indie publishing. Learn from them. Learn with us. Today's guest is Glenn Dyer author of the Conor Thorn Series
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Mindy: Glenn, I'm Mindy. I know you listen to the show. So hello. And Kate. Kate is my co host for our summer episodes.
Kate: I invited myself on the show.
Mindy: She did. She completely invited herself. Do you wanna tell Glenn how that came about?
Kate: I try to run Mindy's life, and sometimes she lets me. Um right now, I'm working on trying to get her to get a puppy.
Glenn: Pet adoptions are through the roof right now.
Mindy: Normally, I adopt from shelters, and you literally can't get a dog right now.
Glenn: Isn't that great news, huh?
Mindy: It’s lovely, except my dog passed away right at the beginning of the epidemic. And I am a girl who's always had a dog. Grew up with dot multiple dogs, you know? And so I lost my dog. And I've been on a mission to get a dog. And there's been various mishaps that I've been sharing over some episodes here. But, Glenn, we're using your episode here in the summer series to talk with self-published an Indy published authors. I just want to mention your titles. You have The Torch Betrayal, it’s a world war 2 spy thriller. Your main character is called Conor Thorn. And then you also have... Don't you have a second title out? I was just looking...
Glenn: Yes, Actually, it'll be out June 9th. It's called The Ultra Betrayal, second in the series.
Mindy: Very nice. Okay, so first question then, why did you decide to go the route that you went? Did you take a shot at traditional publishing and just decide it wasn't for you? Or did you always know that you wanted to go the indie route?
Glenn: What I took a shot at was, you know, the first step in the traditional publishing, and that was trying to, ah, get an agent interested in representing me. And ah, I gave that Ah, a number of months and I think I sent out close to 200 query letters. I got a fair amount of interest. Ah, and responses. Maybe 20 or so requests for either ah sample chapters or full manuscript. And I was hopeful in the beginning. But as time went on, you know, you have to admit that agents are looking for stories that they feel they can sell, obviously. And hopefully they know that there's a potential publisher that they're already aware of that likes the types of stories that they buy. I guess my story at that point in time just didn't feel like it was something that would be easy to sell. That's my interpretation of how things played out. I gave it a good, good go. Gave it enough time to percolate. Um, but one other factor made me decide to just move on from the process is the fact that, um, in my early sixties. I’ll be turning 67 this year. And I and I felt like, you know, I can't wait another year to find an agent and then have the agent possibly not be able to ah, get the book place with a publisher. So I just decided that, you know, I I'd like to get the story out there, see how people react to it.
I started my own company as the imprint and just ah, dove ah headfirst into the independent publishing business, and I found that it was, it was both exhilarating and also kind of scary because there's, there's a lot of moving parts to it. But the fact that I had given it a good try coupled with my age, I just said, All right, let's go, let's see what happens. And then, of course, I I think that, you know, if you have some success selling your titles, you know, you can always revisit the whole process of getting an agent. You can present reviews, you can present sales figures, and maybe that might convince somebody down the road. I haven't given it much thought lately because of, I’ve been so busy with launch of book two. But yeah, I think I gave it a try. And it was just Ah, I guess I got a little impatient and I just wanted to to get the book out there and see ah, what people thought of it.
Kate: I think that's a really great point that, um, traditional publishing can be a very long, slow process. It really moves at its own speed. I mean, you could spend a year or longer querying an agent. The second book I ever queried, actually, I went back and forth with an agent. She was super, super nice. She gave me two R & R’s, where they asked you to revise and re submit to them. And she got on the phone with me. She gave me extensive notes. It was amazing. It was I mean, the time that she gave me was so good and so I actually ended up doing Two of those R&R’s for her. Two massive rewrites. In the time that this was going on, I had my second child. I made another human being over the length of this time.
And at the end of it, so nicely she said to me, I feel like I'm torturing you. And I think this book is not the one. And sometimes you have to go through this to get to the book that is the one. And at that point, I actually wasn't crushed because, um, I was already writing my third book, and that is the one that I ended up finding an agent for and getting published, but, you know, that was, that was a long, long time. And then, you know, you can be on submission with editors for years, and that can be so drawn out, and an editor might also ask you to revise, and then you could do revisions for them, and they could also still reject it. You know, the marketing people could be like that, for us, you know, we got too much of those or whatever. So and then, of course, once they buy your book is another year. So it is like such, it’s such a drawn out process.
Mindy: You're not the only person that I've talked to who decided to go the self publishing and the Indy route due to their age, and I don't think that it's a mistake. I mean, like Kate said, she was in the back and forth with just even trying to get an agent for a few years. I actually queried for 10 years before getting an agent. Partially, that's my own fault because I didn't know what I was doing, but yeah, I mean, you're not the only person I know that has made the decision due to age.
Glenn: If I was, you know, back in my thirties and I had started this process then I might have hung in there with it for a few more years because I must admit, I think that there's, ah, a bit of, ah, sense of pride that you were able to one, get an agent and two, get a deal with a ah publisher to put your book out. Think that would be a pretty good feeling. But yeah, I would have. I would have continued the process for a while longer if I was younger, but, yeah, age, age was definitely a major factor for me.
Mindy: Kate, as a hybrid author do you want to drop any wisdom about the different levels of satisfaction you get from the different venues?
Kate: I agree with you. I do think that there is something about, you know, having an agent choose you and selling your book. That feels really, really good. But I think that people tend to focus on those 1st two hoops. And after you get an agent and then after the publisher, you know, fix your book and gives you money for it, then they publish it and then it's the biggest hoop and you have to get the audience to read it and you have to, you know, get people to discover it. I feel like that last part we put it last instead of thinking like, really, the readers are the most important thing, and I think publishers obviously have a lot of reach to reach readers, but they don't use that reach for every author. You know, some authors get a lot of marketing and some don’t. And there's no way to usually to know if you are going to get a lot. You know, for midlist authors, it's hard to break out.
And so, having switched to the Indies, I... not switched. I bounced back and forth. But on the idie side, I really like having more control and more levers to reach my audience and to play with price and to try different marketing strategies and to be able to see the numbers. And it's actually a little frustrating on my traditional side, like I'm like, I can't see how many books I'm selling. It's like I can't see all that stuff, like a curtain is drawn again. But I do think that there's some people who are always gonna be like Oh, you’re self published, which is why I actually prefer the term indie publishing.
Glenn: Me too, yep.
Kate: Because indie publishing, is like this is a business, and I am taking it seriously, and I see this as a product and I have done it professionally. I think there needs to be more distinction through those. But obviously, you know, I was looking at your website. I was looking at your books. They look very professional. You have amazing reviews. Do you want to talk a little bit about getting those reviews? I saw you have a Kirkus Review. You have some big names, and that's a time consuming process.
Glenn: Actually, I'll get into that. But I want to just say one thing. Kate, I think if you are a hands on person, I think independent publishing is great because, like you said, you you can look at your sales figures you can, you can kind of know where you are. I've heard stories about writers who just, they don't hear enough from their agent. They don't hear enough from their publisher and then just don't know what the heck is going on. So if you’re hands on this is definitely the way to go, But readers need help making decisions what to buy. My research about the whole independent publishing business is that reviews from readers, but also blurbs from other authors in the genre, Professional Review Services, who will give you an honest review. I just heard so much about how important they were. There's a bit of an investment, but that's OK. If you're serious about what you're doing, you have to invest in your endeavors.
As far as the reader reviews, I really worked very, very hard to get the reviews that I got. I should say the number of reviews that I got, um, to the point where I spent a lot of time trying to figure out who the reviewers were, who reviewed similar titles, I was able to use a Program called the book Review Targeter. I was able to scrape off a number of email addresses, and I spent days, day upon days over a long period of time of reaching out to people direct contact with them, asking them Would they mind reading my book and giving me an honest review? And, uh, you know, in some cases, I I actually had to, uh, send a book, but in in many cases, people were willing to, ah, purchase the book and give me a review, and I I really worked very, very hard at that because I learned the importance of honest reviews as far as helping people as they're running around Amazon trying to make a decision what they read next.
Kate: That’s impressive. That sounds like so much work because even when you're traditionally published it it's so hard to get reviews. And I don't think you can go on Twitter and look at author tweets without at any time finding an author saying, If you want to thank an author whose work you love the best way is to leave a review! Like yeah, begging for reviews are part time job.
Mindy: It is, and that's something that I have a blog post that I recycle just about once a year, and it's like 10 free ways to support the authors you love. And that's the number one thing is leave reviews and word of mouth. Word of mouth is a critical piece of how readers learn about books is from their friends and actual face to face conversations or tweets and text to Word of mouth, and there's no data for it, so it's not something you can quantify, but it is, to my mind, the most powerful recommendation machine.
Now I want to ask because I'm looking at your reviews on here. One of the reasons that I thought you would be such a great guest on the show and Kate already touched on it a little bit is the reviews, but not really the reviews. With the quality of the reviewers she mentioned. You have, Kirkus, you also have a Book Life Review, which I want to ask about that. But you got Steve Berry. How did you get Steve Berry to review your book?
Glenn: First of all, there are a lot of people out there who hate to ask for things, and I'm definitely one of those. You just have to say I just have to do this. I also approached it with the attitude of Nothing ventured, Nothing gained. He writes thrillers, I’m writing historical thrillers, although you know, in a different time span. I ran into Barry at a Thriller fest convention in New York in 2017. I attended one of his ah seminars that were given over that weekend, and I found him to be very approachable I just said, You know, let's see if he'll respond. I sent him an email kind of reintroduced myself, and I told him I ran into him at Thriller Fest and I've written this book. Would he mind taking the time to read it and maybe give me a blurb? And I can't tell you how thrilling it was to get his email response saying Sure, Send it my way. I couldn't believe it. I sent it to him. He gave me a great blurb, and he's already read book two, and he's already given me a very nice solid blurb that I plan to use either on the front or back cover.
Who do I know? Who have I met? And if you can reach out to them with, It's sort of like a query letter for for a blurb, where you know there's something in it that's unique to that particular person, whether it's comments about their own works and how important their writing has been to your development, things along those lines. And as long as it sounds sincere and it's truthful, I mean, you know, you you got a good shot at getting a pretty good response. I just sent out a request to another writer today who I really love. And he writes World War, Two mysteries, murder mysteries. He responded right away and said, Yeah, sure, send it my way and you never know until you ask. And if you do it in a proper way, respectful, etcetera. Uh, I think you'd be surprised at how many writers out there want to help other writers.
Mindy: Very true, a lot of writers Do want to help other authors. I am constantly receiving blurb requests, and I've had to recently just say that I'm unable because I literally can't read them fast enough. But if it's a debut, I will always say Yes, and let me look at it because they need all the help they can get. I want to add the fact that because you had that personal introduction of saying I met you at Thriller Fest, I'm sure that that helped you get the foot in the door to have Steve Berry go, Yeah, sure, I'll take a look at it because number one, as you said, like a query letter, it has a personal touch to it, but also you're showing Steve Barry that you're serious enough about your writing, that you're going to cons, and that matters.
Glenn: I couldn't agree more. I think it really does. I think we can all get a sense when somebody's not very sincere or and I think that that is a big part of it. I don't know what you both think of this, but the advice that you should attend at least one major publishing conference a year or workshop or something makes a lot of sense because the contacts you make, not only can they help you, but you might be in a position to help somebody else out. And I think that's just good karma when you feel like you can give back whether it's helping them out, figuring you know, how to best market their books or tell me about your newsletters, your newsletters are great. You know, what can I do for mine? And so on and so forth? Giving back makes a great deal of sense.
Mindy: It does. And on the other end of that, as a published author, I say yes to everything. I'll do things for free. If people will cover my flights, I will sometimes even if I have enough miles on, I’ll just fly myself to wherever the con is. If they're asking me to be on a panel or whatever because of this, and Kate can back me up whenever we go anywhere and Kate or our mutual friend Dimitria is with us. They'll be like, Can you introduce us to so And so, do you know them? And most of the time, yeah, I do. Just because I do so much stuff sometimes on my own dime that networking is invaluable even when you're on the other side.
Glenn: Without a doubt, I'm a big believer in that. In my prior career in broadcasting going to conventions two or three times a year where you can pull somebody aside and say, your stations really doing great. Your ratings for your newscasts are off the charts. It wasn't always that way. What's the secret? What did you focus on? I mean, those kinds of conversations and interactions are invaluable. You can't put a price tag on.
Kate: Especially, I think, though, for writers because we are so solitary. And to be able to make connections with other writers and other authors who maybe are in the position to mentor you. Or maybe they're, you know, on the same place on the writing journey as you, and you kind of have, you know, someone to walk along that road with and compare notes, and it's really rewarding. At this point, I’ve been writing with the goal of publications since, 07 and a lot of the early people who I met actually online. I didn't actually go to any conferences until I was published and went as like a published author because I just I had two small Children and I couldn't afford that. You know, I met lots of people online, and now almost all those people they’re published, You know, some of them are really successful indie authors. Some of them are published traditionally, and it's really cool to see, like how everybody has grown from being, you know, on these message boards, asking other people to read their query letters. To, this is their career now.
Mindy: Kate, I wanted you, if we could circle back to reviews one last time, you also have a Book Life Review for your title. So if you could explain what Book Life is for the listeners. And then, if you and Glenn either one of you have anything to say about whether you thought it helped with exposure, etcetera.
Kate: I got a Book Life Review for my first Indy title that I published which Was a contemporary romance romcom. The Show Must Go On. I just actually found out that the audio book is out now, which is very exciting. Audible picked it up for audio and produced it. I submitted it to Publishers Weekly and You can submit it. You can either like pay them to get a review, for sure. Or you can just be like please review my book. It's really good, and they might pick it or they might not. It was kind of a process they like, sent me an email. They were like, Your book is being considered and I was like a in the small print at the bottom. It's like, but this does not guarantee you a review. And then there was, like another email. I think that was like someone's reading your book. Then at the bottom, it's like, but this does not guarantee a review. And so I'm like, OK, don't get your hopes up and then they posted a review and it was a really good review, and it went into The Publisher's Weekly has like a Book Life section.
Mindy: Yeah, it was in the print version of Publishers Weekly, which is, I would think, pretty good boost as far as visibility. Of course, visibility doesn't always translate into sales.
Kate: It boosted my paperback sales. My e book is Amazon exclusive because it's in the Kindle Unlimited program, but paperback is wide so you can buy it at any bookstore that sells books, I think it boosted my paperback sales for quite a few months. Not like huge like I just had some sales instead of, um, you know, zero. And this is a book that my agent gave me feedback on it. It went out on sub, came really close. A bunch of times editors liked it, and then it kept dying. And so it died in acquisitions. I think like three or four times.
Glenn: It’s so tough to nail that down. You know, I think there's so many factors that come into play to pinpoint one review, or even one promotion is very difficult, although I will say that I first time out, and there's a lot of luck involved in this, and I think I feel very fortunate. I applied for a Book Bub promotion, and I know that those are very hard to get. And I can tell you that was responsible for a ton of sales over a period of 3 to 4 weeks.
So some things you can really point to to get back to the Book Life and Publisher’s Weekly. I think there are certain names that carry a lot of weight with people in the publishing business. And, I think readers to Publishers Weekly and the counterpart Book Life, Kirkus. After that, you've got a New York Times Book Review or Washington Post Book Review. Some of the bigger periodicals or newspapers Some of those really turn a lot of heads, and if you're lucky enough to get a decent review from those sources, It does legitimize your presence out there amongst all the books that are competing for attention.
Mindy: The other thing that I think definitely legitimizes you is your cover because your cover is strong. Did you find a designer to do this for you?
Glenn: As we all know, covers are so critical. I don't know exactly how I stumbled upon this, but in doing research online, I came across Joanna Pen, who ah, is a very successful entrepreneur writer, has sold a lot of both fiction and nonfiction books. Nonfiction books, you know, primarily centers around the publishing business. One of her fiction books cover really stood out to me. I bought the book and you find out whether in the acknowledgements are on the copyright page who designed the cover? And so I reached out to that person, and I've been working with her for a couple of years now. She's actually based in Scotland. She's really talented, willing to listen to your ideas, easy to work with. I really like the first cover, and the second cover is, you know, because it's a Series, there's a lot of similarities to it, sort of feel like I again got lucky and stumbled upon somebody who is really good at what they do. And I know that there's a lot of writers who struggle with, uh the working relationship with their graphic designer, and, you know, they go back and forth and there's 15, 20 different versions of a cover, and they just can't seem to get the one that they both like. And nailing a cover down for these two books was was so, so easy. Her name is Jane Dixon Smith, and she does a great job and and, by the way, Mindy, I'm looking right now at your cover for Be Not Far from Me, and that's a great cover, and you've got some other covers that really stand out, too.
Mindy: I’ve been incredibly fortunate. The same designer, the same book cover artist has done all of my books that are from Katherine Teagan and Harper Collins. I had a different one for my Penguin books. But for all of my Harper books, which are, seven of my nine releases are the same designer, which is pretty amazing when you see the pretty wide expanse of genre and design style. Same Woman doing all of that. She's really good. Her name's Erin Fitzsimmons, and you're right. I know a lot of ah, lot of authors who do goes back and forth and back and forth.
Typically in the traditional world, we don't have a lot of control over our covers. I am very fortunate and that I have a great working relationship with both my editor and my cover designer, and we will all three of us and my agent as well, look at it and say, Well, what do we think? And they listen to my feedback partially because it was a librarian for 14 years, so I don't react emotionally. I'm not going to say Well, the cover is purple and I don't like the color purple. If purple is what is in right now in design- because it does go in waves in YA. Then put a purple cover on it, if that's going to sell it, I don't care like I can be practical about it.
Something else that I wanted to ask you about. One of the reasons I think is interesting to have you as a guest here is because historicals are kind of, they can be a tougher sell. There's a great joke in traditional publishing that got very old for me very quickly. Is that historically historicals don't sell, And I always found that so amusing? Every time I pitch another historical, I would be like just get the joke out of the way and then we can move on. And when we talk about self publishing, indie publishing a book, publishing the big sellers categories is romance... Kate that what's the What's the 2nd one? It's romance and is it mystery?
Kate: I think, romance, thrillers, sci fi. I think all those genres. I think genre fiction is what does really well. I think there is room for historical. I know in traditional a lot of times, you know, you hear a World War Two books are overcrowded, It's very competitive. I think readers love them like, you know, That's why there's a lot of them. Yeah, there's always a World War two book on the top of the charts. It's kind of one of those book conundrums were It's like, Well, there's too many of them but people love them, So maybe we should keep giving those books to people.
Mindy: That's kind of what I'm curious to ask you about. How do you find your readers? Then, when you're in this kind of a sliver of readership, that's going to be reading cause... another thing that I want to say, which I don't know if it's blanket true, but I know that it is true for in most cases, like paranormal romance and stuff like that. Readers that buy traditional books and that go to bookstores and browse and readers that are indie readers that are searching for e books and 99 cent buys, typically is a different demographic. Indie readers typically aren't traditionally published readers as well. You you don't always see both, and you don't get a lot of cross over. So I'm just curious. How do you find readers that are indie readers that are e book readers when you're in the World War two thriller category?
Glenn: That's a very difficult question to answer, because, to be honest, I I'm not sure that I've perfected any kind of a process in that regard. I think there's a lot of ah, let's try this. Let's try that being ah, active in online forums that specialize or focus on World War two, there's a ah Facebook group, Second World War Authors that I'm a part of. I've also tried to, with some advertising, reach out to a specific group of people interested in World War Two history by advertising in a magazine called World War Two History. So, I've tried, I've tried a lot of you know, different things and just as I said before, So it's Sometimes it's so difficult to figure out what's working as reaching out to readers. You could have like 45 things going at once. You could have Series of BookBub and Amazon ads. You could have also gotten into Facebook ads. Maybe you've increased Perma-frees or other incentives to get people to sign up and buy your books. I don't know if I have a specific formula there. Except that you sort of need to try a bunch of different things and trust your gut and maybe get a clear of feel as possible as to what's resonating.
There are people who like the subject of World War Two, but they don't want to read any fictional stories about it, right? You need books about battles and campaigns and biographies of generals, etcetera. Then there are people who don't want to read nonfiction about the war. They just want to read fictional stories. Then you've got World War two love stories, and then you've got books that describe fictional characters in big actual battles. So it's really a tough tough thing to zero in on. You just got to try a bunch of different things to find those readers. If you've got some data that campaigns produce, it's it's a matter of sticking your nose into it and trying to come to some conclusions. That's probably the toughest part of of being an indie author is you sort of have to build up your own expertise. It can take some time.
Kate: Can I ask about... you’re involved in some Facebook groups, where people like World War Two and talk about it are those... So I've kind of looked for Facebook groups, and there seems to be, um, two different types. One is a group where it's it's really people talking about the thing they like. It's you know, readers talking to other readers mostly looked for like romance based ones or fantasy ones. Then there's other kind where it is just people pimping their books. It is just buy my book, buy my book, buy my book, and then I sometimes am posting those, and I think to myself every single person in this group is just an author trying to sell their book. It's just shouting at other authors Buy my Book!
Glenn: To that point, there are some groups out there that have, ah, you know, a certain set of rules as to what's appropriate, Acceptable. You're allowed one announcement for a new book a year because they don't want it just to be a self promotional kind of website. The intent with a lot of these groups is to, you know, provide guidance and answer my questions. And ah, lot of these groups say yes, okay, if you've just read a book about World War Two that, you really enjoy, sure, mention it here. Certainly acceptable, but and even those groups go only so far as to help you get established and get the word out.
Kate: Do you try and go into those groups as like, as a reader, as a lover of World War Two, which I assume you must be Do you try and just organically just doing conversations and get into the group that way?
Glenn: I think that, um, yeah, you could certainly be very passive and just, you know, read everybody else's posts. But getting back to the giving back concept, If you've read a great book, let people know about it. That’s what I used groups for a lot. I ask questions that help me put stories together. I'm having trouble finding research about a specific period of time in Italy during the war. I've had a devil of the time finding books or anything online, so I want to use the forum to say, Hey, I need some help here and I think that's where they provide a very valuable service so they don't necessarily help you find readers. But, you know, maybe after a while your name becomes familiar to people. You could say I'm researching my next book that's called X, and I could use some help, you know, maybe eventually it pays out at some point. But I think asking for advice with independent publishing there's so many moving parts. If somebody out there can save you from making a mistake, will be saved a lot of time, and maybe some money eliminated some frustration, so some of those groups are very helpful. In that way.
Mindy: It could be difficult, like Kate was saying. Sometimes it not only Facebook groups, I mean, sometimes Twitter just feels like all of us linking to our books constantly. I've backed off from social media lately just because I'm worn out. I don't know how much it actually helps. You just hit a point where you're kind of done and I also because of the pandemic. We're recording this at the end of April. I have lost so many events a lot of the time being around other people in talking to other people is what actually gets me, like I get my energy from others. So, like, I have nothing to tweet about right now. I’ve got cat hair on my socks. Do you really care? Probably not. That's not a pretty Instagram photo.
Glenn: I think that's a big fear of mine. Is that at some point I’m worried that people are gonna go, geez, not another tweet from this guy. I really worry about that. And ah, I'm very tempted to to sort of do the same thing that you're doing, Mindy, which is just sort of backing off it for a while and making sure you're not, so to speak, over staying your welcomes.
Mindy: I think best practice is to just be sure that you're not just using whatever the platform is, So let's say Twitter like if I get on Twitter- because that's a big one for me. If I get on Twitter, I don't just get on and post, you know, I a scroll through my feed and I see what other people are saying and I'll respond and I ask questions. You know, when things like that, if you're doing that, if you're actually interacting with community, it's different than just bopping and being like my book is 0.99 today! The pros and cons of social media could be debated until we are all dead. Which will probably be sooner than we would like.
Kate: I think we should leave it there. We’ll be dead sooner than we’d like. Thanks for talking to us! That was a great show!
Mindy: I think that’s true at any point, right? Like it's not just the pandemic. Like you're probably not gonna be ready when it’s time to go.
Glenn: I’m sure that will be the case. You're right.
Kate: That’s a great sign off, Mindy.
Mindy: Thanks. I worked hard on that. We’re all gonna die. Probably sooner than you’d like. Tune in next week. Maybe.
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