Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: I'm here with Hayley Chewins, and we're gonna be talking about writing upper middle grade, which can be a really tricky audience age to settle on voice wise. And a little later on, we're also going to be talking about the process of an R and R that's revising and resubmitting, which can be extremely frustrating and high stress. So we're going to cover all those things. But first, Haley, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? 

Hayley: My name is Hayley Chewins. I am an author. I write middle grade fantasy books and my books, like you said, they skew upper middle grade. They're a little bit on the older side of middle grade. On um, they skew a little bit darker, too. So they’re fantasy books, but especially my latest book, is kind of borderline fantasy horror, dark fantasy. And I also coach writers, help writers to write more intuitively and to get in touch with their unique voice to come up with their most original ideas ever. And I just also launched a new online writing course called 100 Ideas in 10 Days, which helps you to come up with original ideas that are fascinating and interesting to you as a writer. So I do a couple of different things. Yeah, I'm really excited to be here so thanks for having me. I’m excited to chat everything middle grade and revising. I've done a lot of revising and resubmitting. 

Mindy: It's a frustrating place to be. It's like almost there. So why don't you tell us first a little bit about specifically writing upper middle grade? Because you're right. That is very much an area where you can kind of edge into some darker thematics and even push the envelope a little bit with your content. So why don't you talk about writing for upper middle grade and cross over potential for YA and where you see that age range falling? 

Hayley: So it's really interesting because I didn't set out to do it consciously. But my first book, The Turn Away Girls, when it got published, it was kind of like, You know, they put the age on the back of the book, so it was categorized 10 to 14 which is obviously on the older side. Usually, middle grade is like 9 to 12. I guess it depends on the reader.  I don't ever like to Generalize and say, like all 12 year olds are like this. So all 14 year olds are like this. Yeah, so it depends on the reader. So, like a 10 year old reader who has a more mature, maybe reading level or just more emotional maturity might get Just as much out of it as a 14 year old reader. 

It wasn't a conscious thing I didn't set out to go like I want to write up the middle grade, but I think just the themes that I covered in my books just tend to be a little bit heavier. Like the Turn Away Girls is about an island where music is kind of magical. And boys are allowed to make music, and girls are not. And there's a certain group of girls called the Turn Away girls who are forced to turn music into gold so obviously has, like, feminist themes, But on top of that, it also the main character has anxiety. I didn't intentionally do this, but my books tend to have mental health themes, even though they’re fantasy books. So I think it's because of that that they were kind of categorized on more of the upper end. Um, you know, they're not gory. I don't write about like crushes or first love or anything like that, that's usually, that's more YA. I think it's just kind of the heaviness of the themes, sometimes more so then, like the actual content of the book. 

The other thing is that my writing style does tend towards the more lyrical. It's not necessarily the most accessible language for a 10 year old. For a nine year old, it's actually very mysterious to me because I think as a writer we just create the book. And then, in a way, it's like the publisher's job to kind of categorize and market the book. So I didn't query my books as upper middle grade. I just queried them as middle grade, but it ended up being categorized that way.

Mindy: You’re right at that point, you know, marketing is making some decisions. Publishers and book stores are making those decisions, and sometimes even librarians and parents are making those decisions. I like what you said about not forming a hard line for age ranges yourself. You're not necessarily saying I'm writing for 13 year olds. I was a YA librarian for about 14 years. I can tell you, as I'm sure you're aware, too. There's such a broad range. What one 13 year old can handle, the other one simply can't. And so you're right. You would never, You would never say This book is for 13 to 15 or this book is for 10 to 12 because the exposure levels are different, even vocabulary, but also thematics. It could be very different from one child to the next. And I like what you're saying, too, about how you write lyrically. Lyrical writing can't work for every middle grader. Sometimes they need that cemented, rather than being asked to think about larger concepts. I don't know again like you're saying, I really do believe that it all depends on the middle grader themselves and where they're at. And I know a lot of middle graders do rely on those gatekeepers like teachers, librarians and parents to make sure that they're getting what they need. If they need something a little more stimulating than the upper middle grade can sometimes be a great fit.

Hayley: I do think there's a sweet spot that gets kind of missed because of that, and not to generalize about. Like all 13 year olds like this little 12 year olds are like that, but it is kind of like middle grade. And then there's, like, this younger YA that doesn't always get tapped into. And then, Like a lot of YA is like you just plunge straight into, like, really dark stuff, which, of course, teens need, um but yeah, there is, like, this unexplored kind of middle grade area, and it's interesting that we call it upper middle grade. We don't call it lower YA. I don't know if that's just cause lower YA sounds weird. I don't know, but what about younger YA? I totally agree that, you know, Children, just like adults, are individuals. They can't really be categorized in terms of age. And anyone who's ever interacted with you know, a group of Children knows that not every 14 year old is the same. And, like you said, the emotional maturity, the intellectual stuff, what that child has also gone through in their life because I remember being 12 and sometimes feeling like reading some books just felt too, too young for me because they just didn't resonate with me, even though they were technically written for 12 year olds.

I think the other thing with writing middle grade or writing YA, that can be quite tricky is that when you're writing, you kind of write for yourself and you write for the 12 year old or the 14 year old or a 16 year old that you were. I don't write my books from a didactic point of view. I don't write them from the perspective of being a teacher or a parent. I really write them as a writer and as an artist. And of course, I tapped into how I felt when I was 12 or 10. But yeah, I'm not kind of looking to pass on any kind of message, and I'm not really thinking too hard about, you Know, how the book is going to be marketed or categorized, even though, obviously, if you're querying, you have to know that. You have to know I'm writing a middle grade book or I'm writing a YA book. But I think it's something that Children's writers maybe have to navigate that maybe people who write for adults don't really have to navigate that thing. Like you just write the book. You don't have to say who is it for necessarily. It’s that dance between like the artistry of it, Which is like you're writing a book that you would want to read. But then also, of course, keeping in mind the age of your reader at the same time, and sometimes that's a really difficult line to walk, and I don't have any clear answers on it. To be honest.

Mindy: I was actually signing some stock this weekend, and the bookstore owner asked me, Do you have any plans for writing middle grade? And I said No, because, honestly, I think it's too hard, and I mean that. I don't think I could write it. I don't know that I can walk that balance that you're talking about because I write for teens. I write Dark and I write gritty and I'm not making any choices that are self censoring. I write for teens. I don't have any published books for adults, but I have written books that would be marketed to adults that are as of yet unpublished, and it was the same process for me because my reputation, my brand is that I'm always going to push the envelope. I'm gonna be gritty, and I'm gonna maybe cross some lines so I don't have to worry about that when I'm writing. It is part of what my reputation has been built into. So I don't know that I would ever be able to ask myself those questions. I think I would be so cautious that I couldn't be honest in my writing. So I think it takes a very special skill set to write in middle grade. 

Hayley: Well, I don't know if it's a skill set or if it's more just that you really connect with that age group. I think that people who write middle grade most of the writers I know, right middle grade. They just have this feeling of like, I want to write about how I felt when I was 10 when I was 12. Like they feel very connected to that version of themselves, and they can remember it vividly, and they have a sense of deep respect for how it felt to be 10 11 12. And it is. It's such a different feeling, too. When you're 14 15 16 or 16 17 18 on, But it's really interesting that you said about about middle grade because I kind of feel like that about - Not that I wouldn't be able to push the envelope like not the same problem - but I often feel like I just don't know how I would do it like I don't know how I would write about being a teenager, and I don't know if that's just me, like I'm not as connected to my teen self or if I don't get book ideas that are, like, suited to YA or what it is. But yeah, I think it's really interesting how some people just gravitate more towards the one or the other. And then other people can do everything, and it seems like they could just shape shift. I'm very jealous of those people. 

Mindy: Me too. Me, too. I want to circle back a little bit. You mentioned there's no category such as lower YA. Um, there's not. We do use the term clean YA, sometimes. YA that is a little more sweet, naive, and I don't mean that in a negative way, but sweet and naive where they’re characters or teenagers, But there's no sex that there's no drugs. There's no, you know, usually no language, clean YA. It is something that really kind of started to surface, that distinction has come up like I would say, maybe in the past, like three years or so. YA can be very dark and like maybe 10,15 years ago, that was really celebrated like Look, we're really pushing the envelope here and we can go there for teens now and I think that's wonderful because that's where I live. But then we kinda, and the market in general really leaned that way for a while. And there were a lot of librarians I know and also teens that were like, Hey, where's you know? Where's my sweet romcom? Where's my book that doesn't have someone dying in it. Clean YA has kind of had a resurgence, especially now, during the pandemic. People need an uplifting read. People need to maybe not necessarily read about something depressing when we're all living it. That's my answer for when you ask as far as age range. We do have that distinction of clean YA, which is for any age, but it's more of a content descriptor rather than an age range. 

Hayley: How do you feel about the term clean? Which kind of suggests that the other kind of YA is dirty.

Mindy: I don't mind it so much just because as when I was a librarian, I mean, that was part of what I did, because I did all the cataloging. So while I didn't read every single book, obviously in the collection, I would flip through. My eyes were very trained to pick up cursing. I can scan a lot of pages and pick up, you know, drugs, sex, whatever. Ii did that specifically. Just so I knew. And, you know, I had, like, a mental running What kids are going to want this book? What kids are not ready for this book, things like that. Also, to keep myself in good standing with parents and administrators. I don't necessarily have a problem with the word clean because my books are usually called, and I do like the term - gritty, which doesn't necessarily carry dirty with it. But I think the clean distinction is, um, more of an indicator of we're not going there and you know I respect that. And I certainly don't think that clean YA, that the term is denigrating to like what I write. Also most of the people I know write Gritty the way I do. If somebody wanted to call it Dirty we’d be like, Hey, that's fine. That markets very well. 

Hayley: I guess I'm more thinking about the teams who might encounter that term because I'm just thinking about the idea that, like certain kinds of behavior, are dirty or wrong? 

Mindy: No, I get it and that's, That's a good consideration. I agree. Like I would never - And I think it's more of something that's of reference for the gatekeepers. Like I would never hand a book to a kid and say, You'll like this. It's clean. You know, I would never hand a book and be like, you’ll like this. It's dirty, you know? It's like I would never make that distinction to them. It would just be something that I was privately holding. 

Hayley: I think that's why librarians are so important, especially youth librarians, because, you need to get to know the kids who are coming to your library and then on. You have conversations with them and figure out what books they're going to suit them. Such a specialized and important job.

Mindy: It is, and it's something an algorithm can't do. So there's a shout out from my librarians. 

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Mindy: So let's move on to talk about revising and resubmitting for listeners who don't know that's called an R and R. If you get an R and R, what that means is that an agent has read your query they requested pages, usually requested the full, read it and said, Oh, you're so close, but not quite. It isn't necessarily rejection. What it is is an agent telling you these are the weaknesses. I'd like to see you strengthen them and come back around. I want to read it again. So A and R and R can feel a little deflating, but at the same time, it should be encouraging. It's another step in the ladder, so why don't you talk a little bit about that R and R process. 

Hayley: So I was clearing The Turnaway Girls. My agent. Her name is Patricia Nelson. She requested pages and then requested the full manuscript. She got back to me and she said, I really loved the voice in this, like I love your writing and I love the concept of the idea. But there were some significant pacing and kind of plotting problems. I still struggle with plotting and painting. I am by no means an expert, but back then, especially, I was kind of still learning how to write, to write a book and to structure a book so well. First, she asked, like, would I be willing to do a revise and resubmit and I was like, Yes, of course I would love to do it. She sent me notes, and she sent me a bunch of books that she recommended. I read them. One of them was Save The Cat by Blake Snyder, which is a great story structure book if you struggle with story structure. 

So I read the books and I did the changes. Patricia is amazing and that she always gives notes that she kind of points out, points out what's not working, but she'll never tell me like you have to change it in this way. She kind of did that. She gave me broad structural feedback in terms of, you know, where the pacing was lagging and like how the structure of the story wasn't working. And I actually ended up changing quite a lot about the story, like about the world, too, because I find that when you're revising, oftentimes you change one thing and then you have to change another thing because it's all interlinked that it's all tied together and knotted together. 

So I had started during that revise and resubmit for her, and I was very happily doing it. I was really excited to get the notes because I've also heard that, you know, if agents do that - and this is absolutely true - if an agent offers you a revise and resubmit and send you notes and they're taking the time to to really look at your manuscript closely and send your feedback, that means that they really are interested in your book. So it really is, like, so close like you're almost there, but not quite. So I was happily working away on this revise and resubmit, and I ended up getting an offer from another agent on the original manuscript cause I had a couple of fulls out.

So I told Patricia that that had happened and she was like, Okay, just send me like, the first three chapters of what you've revised on. I did that and then she signed me based on those revised chapters. So I actually didn't finish the entire revise and we resubmit. Um, if that hadn't happened, obviously I would have finished it and then sent it to her and hopefully, you know, that sort of happened, Um, she sort of offered me representation. So, yeah, she's been my agent since 2015 and we actually work really collaboratively together to this day, and it was actually a really good thing, I think, that that happened because it gave me a sense of what it would be like to work with her. And I just knew that we clicked on an editorial level. But then I did another R and R later on when we went on sub and got an offer to revise and resubmit from my editor at Candlewick again, a very similar experience. 

My editor said she absolutely loved the book, Loved the voice, loved the world and there was some story problems. She wrote me a really in depth revising, resubmit edit letter. I think it was 12 pages long. It was actually really great because it gave me kind of an idea of what it would be like to work with her even before we work together. The reason why I did it also is because in the edit letter and in her email, it was really clear that she really understood the story and loved the heart of the story and just really wanted to help me to make it the best book that it could possibly be. I've had quite good experiences, with revising and resubmitting. 

I did another revise and resubmit, actually on the manuscript that I queried before The Turnaway Girls that actually ended up in a rejection. But that also kind of taught me that I think what happened with that, is that I kind of over revised the book. Um, I don't know if you've ever done that, but I kind of revised, like the book out of the book. And it was kind of like, unrecognizable by the time I sent it. But I do believe like, everything happens for a reason. I'm one of those people. So I'm glad that I had that experience because just every experience that you have like that, when you're querying is just like a nugget of gold because you're learning how to query, you’re learning how to interact with agents. You're learning how to structure a story, you're learning how to write the books that you were born to write. And I do think that first book that I queried that I was getting too a sense of who I was as a writer and kind of what I wanted to say and the kind of book that I wanted to write, that I wasn't quite there yet. So I think that's also probably why it wasn't, it didn't end up being a successful revise and resubmit, but it taught me so much. 

Mindy: That really is one of the most healthy and positive, and best ways to look at a revise and resubmit is that you just have professional feedback on your work, and that's something you got for Free too. That is something that is invaluable. And even if a revise and resubmit, because the other thing and it can be a frustrating element of the R and R, is that every editor has their own style. So if you revise and resubmit heavily like you were, you were just saying, If you revise and resubmit to really kind of fit a particular editor or you revise so deeply that it doesn't have a lot of resemblance to your original concept or your original voice, sometimes that can be highly frustrating.

I actually had an experience and I won't say which one of my books but it's one of my published books, where it was acquired, and I had gone through an editorial process and had already done a pass, and it was dense -  like this was not a simple book. And the editor I had been working with really wanted things to be a little more spoon fed. I did a version that was more of a walk through. They had a little more spoon feeding for my readers. Did that edit, turned it in, and in the meantime, this editor left publishing and I was handed to a different editor. She was a senior editor. She read it. She got back to me. You're really illustrating some things that I don't necessarily need, think, need to be. And I said, Well, that was because I did a revision based on notes from this other editor. And so the senior editor said, Why don't you send me your original manuscript that we bought? And so I did, and she's like, This is the one I'm working with. I like this one better, And I was like, Okay, so I had put in a revision in on a book and it was essentially scrapped. But that was okay, because I preferred the choices that the senior editor was making as well. It was an interesting experience. It was a little bit frustrating, but at the same time, I learned, you know, not to necessarily write to, Please an individual and a specific vision. Yeah, it's very hard to dissect what is yours and what is being imposed upon your work. 

Hayley: Exactly. I think especially starting out like when you're first querying or when you know, your first kind of starting out, with a finished manuscript, and you might have critique partners, but at that time, also, you if you don't have a sense, you didn't have, like, a very strong sense of who I was and my voice. And I think this is just actually a general problem. Not necessarily a writing problem, but but, you know, like having a real sense of conviction about your work is quite hard when you're just starting out and you kind of just You just desperately want an agent. You want to get published, you want this dream of yours to come true. And sometimes it feels like Okay, so it. I'll do anything, you know. If you want me to change everything about this book, I'll do it. 

I get what you're saying that like even though I always think of like a good answer, is really trying To, see your vision and then try to bring that vision into fruition in the best possible way in that situation where you have someone who's just trying to foster your project and get it to be the best version of itself at the same time, they're also individual people, and they have their own individual taste and they have different ways of solving problems or different ways of approaching the work. So, yeah, it is really It's a really hard line to walk with each project. You kind of have to know what is the heart of this book. What is the one thing that I would not be able to take out because if I took out that thing, it would die basically. And that's a really cool idea. 

But then at the same time, it's like, Well, how do I know what that thing is? And I guess sometimes you have to just try and have, like trial and error and see like Is the core feeling still alive, If I take this out? Because some stuff is kind of ornamental, almost. I don't know something that isn't necessarily part of the nuts and bolts of the story at the same time, style can sometimes be. And that's nuts and bolts thing you might say you might feel like, No, this is the voice of the book, and it needs to sound like this. It can't be in very clean, straightforward pros. It has to be like strange, pretty prose, and that's what the book is. 

Um, but yeah, it's hard to do that as a young writer, I found it hard. Even now. I mean, I am still quite a young writer. To be honest, my second book is coming out in a week, Um, and it feels super surreal. But yeah, definitely. Like five years ago, it was much harder for me to know, like what is me and what is them and what is like the crystallized center of the book and what is like the stuff that I can change and remove and because I've always liked to think of myself as like happy to be flexible. I also think that ideas are so stretchy and so capacious. If you have an idea for a book and it's not working, you can always find a way to make it work. Sometimes that means changing it quite substantially, But you can make it work. It's really hard.

Mindy: It is. It's very hard to do, and especially when you are a younger writer or you're unsure of yourself and what your own voice might be. Yet it is difficult. Uh, that's the fine line. That's the fine line. And I think you got to go with your gut. I had an interesting experience when I was querying my first book. It's a post apocalyptic survival set in a world with very little water, and I had two agents offering to represent me. I'd been querying for 10 years, dying for some attention, and suddenly I had two agents offering to represent me. One of them had only sold one book, and one of them had sold like 30 that month like it was ridiculous. But the highly highly successful agent was also more of a romance agent. She represented A lot more of like happily ever afters. 

And one of the things that we talked about on the phone-  my character's love interest dies in the book - spoiler warning, but he dies and that's because that's how I write and I write gritty and I write hard and I write rough and this is a harsh world and you're not going to get a happily ever after. And she didn't want that to happen. She wanted him to live. I talked to the agent that's only sold one book, and she's like, No, I love that you killed him. That was awesome. And I'm like, Well, you're going to be the better fit for me, like that's all there is to it. You know, sometimes you just have to ask yourself like you said, like, What's the thing that you're not going to trade in? And I was not going to trade in a happily ever after like that was not happening for me. Really, it is gut. I think whenever you have feedback from an agent or an editor, even a critique partner, you do need to consider it and ask yourself, Does this go against my prime core for this book? Do I feel very strongly about this and then ask yourself why, it's like, Do I feel strongly about this just because I can't accept criticism? Or do I feel strongly about this? Because it's the essence of the book?

Hayley: Or is it just my ego, Like am I just feeling a bit bruised hearing this criticism. You have that wish for someone would just be like this is amazing. And when they come back and say, Well, actually, this is great, but this isn't quite working for me or that isn't quite working. You do have to be quite self aware and emotionally mature, I think, to be like, Well, is it just me feeling a little bit like Bruised about this? Is it just my ego rearing its head? And what I find often helps is that if you just read it first and then kind of step away, give it some time and then come back because often the first time you read something, it is difficult to read criticism, but if you have a little bit of distance, if you go away for a couple hours and come back, or for a day or two and then come back. You can usually read it a second or third time with a bit more distance, and then maybe you can make more level headed choices about what to accept and what not to accept. 

And I also think that it's important. Maybe, and maybe part of the thing of growing as a writer is understanding what your weaknesses are and what your strengths are. So I'm very aware that, like I have certain strengths, but I also have weaknesses. And so if I get feedback about those weak points, I'm like pretty much always like my agent is right or my critique partners are right, because I yeah, there's just some things that come really naturally and then other things that you have to work really hard on. I've never met a writer who doesn't have at least one area that they feel like This is like my problem area, like, I just have to work so hard on getting this right. 

Mindy: It is hard to be circumspect about your own writing, but you're completely correct that time and distance is what helps make that possible. Real quick, why don't you tell us a little bit about your class 100 Ideas in how many days? 

Hayley: 10 days. I know it sounds a little outrageous. Um, it is actually a self paced tool, so you don't have to do it in 10 days. I just thought it sounded really cool to come up with 100 ideas in 10 days. It's about following your intuition and finding your voice and coming up with your most original ideas ever. And it's about how you can make a book idea, meaning not just a new story idea, but like a new idea for how to move the scene forward or an idea for a character or an idea for world building. You could make an idea pretty much out of anything. This is my belief in life and in writing. And I got to a point when I was studying law and suddenly didn't have time to write, didn't have time to read, and I was like, Oh, God, this is actually a really important thing to me. Like I can't actually live my life without this thing, without writing, And that was when I kind of admitted to myself like that I really wanted to write books, which meant I had to finish a book all the way from the beginning to the end, which meant that I had to somehow have a book idea. And so, even though I had, like, this intense desire to write a book, I didn't really have a sense of my own voice or what I wanted to say, and I didn't feel like I had any ideas. I didn't feel like my point of view was particularly interesting. 

At that time I was also reading mainly adult literary fiction, and that's what I thought I wanted to write. And so I wrote thousands and thousands of words, many manuscripts for adults. Before I started writing for Children, I was bored with myself. I had no idea what to write about, and I didn't know how to tap into that and how to like, think of something interesting to write about. So that's kind of why I created this course. 100 Ideas in 10 Days is basically four lectures and 10 lessons, so they're all audio. It's an online classroom. You can log in and do it all in one goal, or you could do it really slowly. You could do it over 10 months or 10 years, or however long, like however you want to pace it. There are reflections about idea, generation and idea development. So, just like general principles. And then there are 10 exercises, and each of the exercises helps you to generate 10 ideas. So by the end of it, you have 100 new story ideas. Even if you start out and you don't really have a vision for your writing by the end of it, you'll have a clear idea of what kind of a writer you wanna be. I just kind of wanted to make something out of love and put it out into the world. And, yeah, I hope that people get something out of it. 

Mindy: Let listeners know where they can find you online, where they can find your upcoming book and also how they can take that class. 

Hayley: So I'm at HayleyChewins.com. If you go to HayleyChewins.com/100-ideas, you'll find the 100 Ideas in 10 Days Course. And yeah, my book that's coming out in a week is called The Sisters of StrayGarden Place. It's out with Candlewick Press, 13th of October 2020. Kind of like a Gothic dark fantasy, middle grade about sisterhood and forgiveness and family secrets. Yeah, I really hope people like it. That's me. I'm also on Twitter at Hayley_Chewins.

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