Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. 

Mindy:             This summer I'm adding a co-host, fellow author Kate Karyus Quinn. We'll be doing a series that focuses on hybrid and indie authors. If you're thinking of going the Self Pub route we've got authors who found success with six figure sales, as well as authors who are just starting out on the road to indie publishing. Learn from them. Learn with us.

Today's guest is William Schreiber, William’s novel, Someone to Watch Over, won the 2019 Rising Star award from the Women’s Fiction Writers Association. The novel is based on his original screenplay, which has won or been nominated for many awards, including the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences’ Nicholls Fellowship in screenwriting.

Mindy:             We are recording this on July 2nd, and it has been 90 degrees here in Ohio for about a week. It's hot and miserable, and when I turn on the computer, everything, everyone everywhere, seems to be miserable. 

Kate:                 Do they sell fireworks in Ohio?

Mindy:             Only certain things are illegal. So I don't know how hard it is enforced. With my little puppy, dude, my little puppy dude friend I have to be careful with fireworks this year, so I'm probably... My family doesn't really do anything for the fourth. 

Kate:                You don’t have a big self fireworks show?

Mindy:             My cousin used to have and I'm sure it was illegal. He used to have a huge, huge firework show, but they have a baby now, so they're not really doing that. And I've got a puppy go anyway.. 

Kate:                We in New York used to be illegal for all kinds, like nothing was sold here. And so we would get these flyers in the mail or this fireworks place that's just over the border in Pennsylvania and people would go down Pennsylvania, load up on fireworks. So even though it was illegal to buy them, people would have tons of fireworks in their front yards. And like people were not hiding it. I think two years ago here in New York, not like, I guess, not the big, big ones, but like the basic ones and sparklers and stuff.  so and it's also expensive, like when people are like setting off fireworks for an hour like, I can’t believe how much money people were literally setting on fire. 

Mindy:             For a long time we couldn't get certain fireworks, and I never really had any. And my ex his family was from West Virginia and you can do anything in West Virginia. 

Kate:                I think that's what their state motto it is.

Mindy:             It's actually wild and wonderful, but it means the same thing. 

Kate:                That’s crazy, that you know that.

Mindy:             Yeah, His family brought a bunch of, um, fireworks to me one time, and, you know, I never used it because, like I said, I don't want to set myself on fire. I have set myself one for multiple times. I don't need to keep doing it.

Kate:                You would totally be the person who would get like, a faulty firework and be like, Hey, guys, I'm typing this with one hand. I'm still learning to type with my other hand when I only have three fingers laughed and we'd be like all, Mindy set herself on fire again.

Mindy:             Well, and I need all my fingers as you're saying, I type for a living. My sister asked me the other day. How's the typing going? And then she just kind of stopped. I'm sorry. I mean, how's the writing going? And I'm like, No, you're right. It's like that's what I do for a living. I type I type for a living, but yeah. I had these fireworks from West Virginia that I was just like, I don't know what to do with these. And then So, like my niece’s friend, who is also a cousin of mine, high school girl, was over. And I know her parents, and I was just like, Hey, you want these fireworks? And she was like, yeah sure. So her Mom texted me like an hour later and she's like, Hey, uh, are these legal? And I was like, I don't know are from West Virginia and she takes me back. She's like, I googled him. They're totally illegal. And I'm like, Hey, send your kid over again next time we'll send her home something else illegal! You'll never know! 

Kate:                So did they end up using them or not? 

Mindy:             Oh, they used them. I mean, it's it doesn't matter where we live out in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, and then she sent me video of them. She's like we set off the fireworks, and I’m like that’s cool, thanks. A little bit of joy in my life.

Speaking of joy and trying to find something positive, there's a podcast that I came across called The Melanin Project. It had an episode that I thought was particularly poignant for me in the moment because she was talking about imposter syndrome. So the whole podcast is about positivity and self love and just feeling better about yourself, period, which we all freakin need right now. And she did an episode about imposter syndrome, and I thought it was really interesting because I know so many authors, some of them extraordinarily famous and extremely talented. They really do attribute their success to a fluke, right time, right place, kind of thing. And that is an element. But you know, you don't get to be where you are simply by luck alone and and so many people, authors, especially that I know, do suffer from impostor syndrome and it made me... the episode made me think about that because I do it too, all the time when I'm talking to people, I'm talking about writing, I'll be like, yeah, imposter syndrome. You know, I got lucky with my debut, and I got lucky with my editor and my house, and all of those things are true. But I also got them through talent, perseverance and hard work.

So it made me think, it made me think just about imposter syndrome and and taking a little more credit in my life for the things that I have accomplished. But then also, I had to laugh. I don't know if I've ever told you this story, Kate, but I was on a panel with a very famous white, older white male actor. The question of imposter syndrome came up from the audience that people ask. You know, does anyone here, does anyone on the panel, suffer from imposture syndrome? And someone had to explain to him what imposter syndrome was. 

Kate:                Oh, to be a white male.

Mindy:             Yeah, he was just like, he, was very sweet. I'm not going to say who it was because he was very sweet. Very kind. 

Kate:    But still, that's a level of privilege.

Mindy:             Absolutely. It was super funny because he genuinely like looked up and down on the panel was like, I'm sorry. What? What is Imposter syndrome? I've never heard of this.

Kate:                Oh, my God. Wow.

Mindy: I was like, Well, I guess when you're born that good looking …

Kate                 Yeah, it must be so nice. 

Mindy:             Anyway, it was just funny and listening to that episode made me think of that. 

Kate:                So you actually mentioned this podcast to me a couple weeks ago because I've been painting my house. We're getting ready to put on the market. We actually just did it today. It's on the market, it’s on Zillow. 

Mindy:             So you did all the positivity you can find, selling a house. 

Kate:                Like, I've been doing lots of painting, and so I you know, it just gets very, very tedious, painting. You know, One coat, two coat. Does it need a third coat?  You're looking at it. And so, um yeah, So I listened to an episode, and it was right around the time when the protest, were really going strong. A couple weeks ago, the episode was about Black Lives Matter, and it was a great podcast to listen to that, because so many voices that I think, that I hear are more media savvy individuals. And this felt more like a person on the street reacting and giving you their feelings about it.

And the episode actually started. Well, it starts first with the theme song, which is amazing. It immediately went into a clip of President Obama, and I believe it was from a commencement speech that he had just given And hearing His voice was like such a soothing feeling like it was like a feeling of being safe. Like when you're like, a kid and you're driving home somewhere late at night. And your parents are talking softly and you're in the back seat of the car and you just feel like safe and you fall asleep. Like that was how it felt like I was like, I want to be that kid again year, You know, I want to believe that everything was going to be okay.

Mindy:             Yeah, you need a bumper sticker. Obama's my co pilot.

Kate:                I want him to be the pilot, though! I want him to be the pilot again. 

Mindy:             True.

Kate:                All right. God. And then the host of the show, she you know, she talked a little bit about it. And what Black Lives Matter means to her and then she had this really great guest that talked about raising Children, specifically raising black Children and how to, you know, raise them to be proud of who they are. And so it's just really interesting to hear from that point of view, because I, um a very white white lady. I live in a very white suburb and, you know, I don't want to be trapped in this this white bubble. You know, I need more windows in my life, and I need more access to other people and, you know, outside of just my own experiences, because I think that's, you know, that's a big part that's missing for a lot of people.

Mindy:             That's the truth. My cousin, a different cousin. I have many, many, many cousins. So my cousin and his wife are an interracial couple. And so their child, of course, is mixed race, and they live in an area that is, you know, super diverse. And they have that ability for their child to have a diverse experience in being raised. However, he's young. I think he's like five. He's a sweetheart. And unfortunately, the news and everything you know, little, little guy he didn't he didn't know racism was a thing. Like he didn't know about it. And of course, that's everything that we're talking about and dealing with right now. And so my cousin and his wife had to talk to their little boy about why some white people hate black people. And they were like, Yeah, that, you know, it sucked. It was really hard. And that particular episode, I can see that being really useful. 

Kate:                I know it's such a hard thing to have these discussions, and, you know, we've been talking to my kids and explaining what's going on. And, you know, my kids are just like, That's stupid. Why are people acting like that? And I'm like, Well, guys, there's a lot of history, So we're reading a lot and we're reading All American Boys together as a family is like sort of having a discussion about it. Yeah, it's so good. So far. So we’ll, we pass the book around, and we all read a chapter and then we discuss it, and so.

Mindy:             For those of you that don't know, um, All American Boys is an amazing YA novel by Jason Reynolds and his co author Brendan Kylie. They're both wonderful men, lovely people to know and talk to. So definitely if you're looking for something to talk with your Children about about what is going on here today, All American boys is wonderful.

Kate:                And it’s a YA book just to be clear. It is a YA book. Um, my daughter is only 10. My son just turned 13 and there is talk about drinking and stuff. But, you know, I just, I just feel like it's all an opportunity for a conversation with your kids, you know, because I was just like, you know, some kids in high school do drink. But a lot of kids also don't. We just try and talk to our kids so much that they're like, Please stop. 

Mindy:             All American Boys. That's a good one. Definitely. And also, if you're looking for something for yourself, check out The Melanin Project. It is for adults. There is language. Just FYI for anybody that might want to share it with their kids. You go for it if you want to. Just FYI there's language. I mean, I have language here, so I assume if you're listening, you don't mind, but so I wanted to throw that out there. 

Also, I have created a Facebook page for the blog and podcast. Yes, Kate had a great idea. Kate has been pushing me to do this for a while. I haven't done it because I have way too much on my plate. And this particularly week when I've had the most that I've ever had on my plate, I decided I should do it. So, I have created a Facebook page for Writer Writer Pants on Fire. So just search Writer Writer Pants on Fire and give us feedback. Let me know what you think of the blog. Let me know what you think of the podcast. Let me know if there's someone you would like To have as a guest, and I will try to get them. Let me know if there's a certain topic that you would like to see addressed and more importantly, if you have a specific question if you have something you would like to ask about writing about publishing something that you've tried to look for information on and then when you look at it your like, but that's not quite exactly my situation. Go ahead and ask me. Ask me on the Facebook page and I will try to get to everyone here in the pre-chat before we roll into our guests.

Kate:                People used to comment on blogs a lot, but do you get a lot of comments on your blog any more?

Mindy:             No. Never. People. People don't interact on blogs anymore, which is fine. I mean, they used To. I do feel a little lonely sometimes over there on the blog. Um, but I started doing more. I do my interviews, as always. And, of course, which just to remind everybody - Saturday Slash – I do free query critiques on the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog.

Kate:                Awesome! Awesome Amazing author offer! 

Mindy:             It’s an author offer! So yeah, free query critiques on the blog. Go to blog. Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire dot com, you can find the blog  and the podcast. Visit the Facebook page. 

Kate:                And transcripts of the podcast on the blog! 

Mindy:             Yes, absolutely. There are transcripts of every episode. And let me tell you guys, that is a pain in my ass. So if you're not, you know...

Kate:                I also convinced you about that.

Mindy:             That was also Kate's idea So if you're not using them, tell me and I will stop putting 3 to 4 hours into every single one of those posts.

Kate:                Yeah, I told you because I like to sometimes read podcasts instead of listening, and because it's faster. 

Mindy:             It’s mostly really good for my SEO. But I'm just like, ah, and I agree with all of those statements. And then while I'm doing it, I'm like, God damn it, Kate. So everybody let me know, Go to the Facebook page and tell us, Tell us people you want to hear about, things you want to talk about, questions that you have That's about it. Today's guest. We’ve got something a little bit different for you. William Schreiber. We have an award winning screenwriter today. We try to bring you something that's maybe a little bit different. Couple weeks ago, we had the creator of Pictionary. So today we're having on William Schreiber, who is a successful screenwriter. 

William:          My name is William Schreiber. I am a screenwriter and novelist that lives in Seattle. I also freelance. I have a journalism background. I graduated from University of Florida College of Journalism. 

Mindy:             The freelance life. We'll talk about that for a second, because I do freelancing as well. I do some work for hire and I do writing gigs and, uh, gig work stuff like that. I love it like, personally, I enjoy it, but it's always funny. I always tell people when I go to like, let's say, get a loan from the bank or something like that And they're like So you know, we need your tax returns for the last two years. And how much money do you think you'll make next year? And I'm like, I have no idea. 

William:          Right?

Mindy:             And they're just like What? What do you mean that I'm like, I have no idea, Guys, It's like I could make $100,000. I could make $5000. I could make nothing. Like I just I don't know. Can you talk about that freelance, freelance gig economy lifestyle? That would be, that would be great.

Kate:                Can I just say something, I just talking about getting a loan. We just yesterday we were in the beginning stages of trying to sell our house and buy a new house. So we talked yesterday to the mortgage guy who we used When we bought this house, he was like, Now, Kate, what do you do again? And I said, I'm a writer and he goes, Oh, yeah, that's right. Oh, that's so cool. And then he's like, You know what your yearly income about? And I was like, I never know. Yeah, And he was like, so less cool from this vantage point of getting us a loan. So, um, yeah, it's everyone thinks that cool when you're writer and then like, they hear the money side of it. And it's like, Uh yeah, that's right. 

William:          Yeah, well, when I was in journalism college, you know, Journalism 101 If you're pursuing a journalism degree in order to make a lot of money, you are in the wrong field. That's the first thing. So it's true, you know? I mean, freelancing is tough because it's a constant churn of finding work, doing the work, and, you know, it's it's kind of like film development, where you have projects at different places in the development process, and you have to go out and get another one to put in the pipe while you're in the middle of the pipe on one project and ending the pipe on another project.

So it's it's a lot of work. The pipe has gotten bigger because of all of the online freelance marketplaces. People who need writers and writers who need work cand find each other. Um, like I'm on a site called Up Work, and I like the freelancing that I like to do. I really like to have a a connection to it, you know, so I can put my heart into it. And ah, a lot of the writing I'm doing are for clients who have a social conscience and are involved in social equity and in clean energy and in using technology to help people who wouldn't necessarily be able to afford that technology with without some intervention of some kind. I really enjoy it. If you're going to be a writer, you have to love it too, right? No matter what, and that's that's kind of where I am. I just love helping tell stories that I, that I believe in, you know, particularly when it's kind of work for hire situation.

Kate:                I know, actually, a lot of people who have come to write fiction through starting in journalism where they worked for a newspaper or something. And I always think like that's actually a great background for writing. And when I was, you know, I've always wanted to be a writer, but when I I was ah, youngster, you know, I thought, Oh, you know and I was looking at majors. I thought, I don't want to do journalism because I don't want to write nonfiction like I don't you know, I don't want to write truth. The stuff I just want to write fiction and tell stories. But now, with age and wisdom and I'm a huge newspaper reader - journalist tell stories they're just telling with facts. And when you're reading, you know, a really great writer, the bigger newspapers and the way they shape a story and the way they tell it. And you know, when they find that perfect last line at the end a story. It's It's a craft as much as fiction, and I think it's it makes you a stronger writer overall, right?

William:                      Yes, I agree. The return to close ending, Um, I was kind of the same way going into journalism school, I thought, I really want to write about people, you know, I want to write about human interest. And so the University of Florida had, you know, you could decide on, a newspaper track or a magazine track. And I took the magazine track. Um, because it allowed me to kind of follow that interest in writing more about people and about events and about life. And, um, you know, human interest, rather than covering um, you know, mosquito Control board meetings in Florida. What's really great about a journalism background, I think in terms of translating into, you know, writing fiction or screenplays is the ability to learn how to research. Research is so important, I think, in injecting verisimilitude or believability, plausibility into stories. You know why somebody would do something or why a situation is the way it is. So I think journalism is, It is a really strong background for this type of writing. 

Mindy:             I agree. And I want to go back to what you were saying about the Internet, opening up a whole new venue for freelancers and for gig economy workers. My cousin, she actually lives in Portland she does video editing, her husband is a cameraman. And now, of course, with Covid 19 The film and TV industry has just like ground to a halt. Hopefully, they're able to pick up again soon, but they just went cold turkey. Nothing's being produced on, and my cousin, because she's a video editor, got plenty of jobs. And they're kind of, not high on the hog, but they're able to scrape by editing little videos for the Internet. 

So I was asking her like, What are you doing? And she's, like, Do you know those videos where it's like put in a cup of almonds and then a cup of sugar? Stir it counterclockwise? And you just see the hands moving. She's like, Yeah, I'm doing those and she’s like - its work So she's like it is the most boring work, and I hate it, but I'm getting paid. I just think it's super interesting. Um, how the Internet has changed and I want to come back to to what you were saying about your having the choice as a journalism major, newspaper or magazine route. Does that option still exist? Because print in the journalism world, my ex, my ex was a photographer and it was just everything collapsed. It just didn't exist anymore. I’m curious about that journalism major that you the program that you went through versus what a program would look like today? Do you have any thoughts on that?

William:          Yes, I know the University of Florida. They they have pivoted, you know, along with traditional journalism into digital media and social media in a big way and actually have agencies there that are student run and students staffed. Do actually do projects, you know, as part of their work. And it's very much, of course, you know, going online and social media. But we need to not lose sight of the fact that facts matter and good reporting matters. And no matter the the platform, no matter the the outlet, that content needs to be as solid as it ever has been.

Kate:                I was thinking about that when you said, you know, they tell you it's your first thing they told you at school was don't do journalism if you want to make a ton of money, and I feel like, you know, we're in a time when the media is so villainized. And I I'm always saying like the media is not like this conglomerate. It's like people who went to school because they they want to tell the truth like they want to, like, find out what's going on. And want people know like the true story of what's happening. Like That's their passion in life.

William:          You know, journalism is called the fourth estate of this country and without somebody to keep those in power accountable. I'm sorry. But unchecked power and human nature, left to its own devices is not a pretty thing.

Mindy:             I think that the long and bloody and horrible history of the Roman emperors is a great example, especially the Julio Claudians. I am kind of a geek when it comes to just this certain, about 100 years of Roman history and...

William:          The Julio Claudians. Yes, of course. 

Mindy:             Yes, of course. You would know who they are if I use, if I use their names So like Nero, Nero, Caligula, Claudius, all of them, those those dudes, you know, they were just batshit crazy like by the - Claudius being the exception, more than likely - but they were just batshit crazy. And there's all these different theories about, you know, the family had epilepsy, and they have probably had repeated seizures and had brain injuries because of it. And that's totally possible. But a lot of behavioralists are just like, no, they had unchecked power. They could have anything they wanted to any time and mentally, that's just, that's not going to produce a functioning human being, right? 

William:          There is a reason that absolute power corrupts is a truism. 

Kate:                Let’s talk about screenwriting! 

Mindy:             Let's not talk about Roman Emperors anymore. 

Kate:                You were a finalist for Nichols?

William:          I Was a Quarterfinalist, which was the top 5% of the Nicholls Fellowship competition. I've actually had three top 3/4 finalist one drama, which was this as a film, is considered a drama. The book, um, a comedy, which I learned was kind of unusual for the academy to the rate of comedy in their world and an action thriller. So, yeah, I played in that sandbox for a while.

Kate:                For listeners who don't know, the Nichols is an extremely, I would say, the most prestigious screenwriting award that there is. Basically, Would you agree with that assessment? 

William:          I would agree with that assessment. I think it's the most competitive screenwriting competition in the world, and I've been involved in a number of them and have, you know, like in the, in the book world, you you learn which ones are paid attention to and which ones aren't. Um, I think Austin is another one that's gets a lot of attention. The Austin Film Festival.

Kate:                So can you talk about how you, What was your journey into screenwriting? What made you decide To go in that direction and decide to tell stories in that way.

William:          After college, I worked in at a magazine in South Florida, and then I became the editor of the University of Florida magazine, and I was there for five years. And then, ah, I met my wife there. We got married and we moved to Georgia, where I started freelancing for the first time after kind of being on a staff. And a producer friend of mine in Florida had a director who needed a screenplay for a film idea he had, and it was essentially, a coming of age, family adventure comedy about a big city kid from New York who comes down to a small Florida beach town and learns how to follow his dreams from a band of, ah, kind of comical retirees on the beach. They were lead by Ernest Borgnine, which was a lot of fun. 

Mindy:             Um wow. 

William:          Yeah. And I wrote the screenplay, never having written a screenplay before and just kind of followed my instincts. Um, kind of for music theory, actually. And storytelling. You know, I think we all have a sense of of rhythm and stories, and we know. Okay, well, something needs to happen here. Otherwise, you know, it's boring. Um, so I wrote the screenplay, you know, based upon kind of a song writing approach where there are movements, you know, whether you're talking about an orchestra or or even a pop song, you know, verse, chorus, bridge. You set up expectations, um, with certain chord progressions. And if you don't meet those expectations that creates tension. Um, so I had the good fortune of writing that screenplay was my first screenplay was produced. Which was a blessing and a curse.

Kate:                Wow, that's pretty rare. Did you read any screen writing books cause screenwriting is, I Don't Want to say technical. I mean, there's a lot of formatting, but also there's, you know, just the interior, the exterior, the slug lines... 

William:          I read about how to format it, and it looked extremely tedious to me. So I bought a piece of software Movie Magic screenwriter. 

Kate:                I have that too. 

William:          I worked in that program for years, and, ah, with a couple of key presses, you can move between all of those various elements of sluglines and screen description and character and dialogue. And yes, 

Kate:                It's so much easier. 

William:          Gets all that technical stuff out of the way, you know, so you can just kind of get a flow going. So that's what I did. I found that program, and that's what I, that's what I use. And it took care of all of that. 

Mindy:             As a non screenwriter person over here. Can you explain what a slug Line is? 

William:          It’s whether it's an exterior or an interior shot and then what the shot is. And then typically the time of day, for example, Interior Craftsman House Day. Okay, then you just you know, you have a few lines of description as to what the camera sees what's happening and then, you know, you bring your characters in.

Kate:                The hardest thing with the screenplay is that there's no, you know, with the novel you have, it's a lot of interiority, You know, you have all the characters thoughts, and you can explain things. You know why they make this leap to fall in love with someone or their thoughts and how they get from one thing to the next. And on a screenplay. It all has to be visual, and you have To use visuals and, you know, make it visually interesting, the story and also communicate everything through visuals unless you kind of cheat a little bit and use voice over. 

William:          That was part of the transition that I had to go through in terms of transitioning from telling that story as a screenwriter to telling it as a novelist, because I've come to realize that screenwriting is writing from the outside in and novel writing is writing from the inside out. You should stick with one P O V. You know, unless you, you build in a transition and you can't jump POV's, whereas a camera is all over the place, you know, it’s all POV changes. 

Kate:                It's funny, I I'm a big romance reader and I will sometimes go back and read old school romances that I read when I was younger. The old school romance authors used to do a lot of head hopping. I don't know if that's a newer rule.

Mindy:             That's a really good question, because I have noticed that as well. I do editorial work on the side, and every now and then it's like, I'll flag someone, you’re head hopping. You can't do that. And then and then I'm like, Well, I mean, who says? Who says you can’t? Only we've been, We've been taught that that you can't head hop. But I do think that is somewhat a new phenomenon. 

Kate:                With third person. I'm always like trying to tell people, like usually with third person unless you that omniscient Narrator It's usually close third person.

William:          I think that Someone To Watch Over was probably a good story to start with as a novelist. It's my first book and there are two main characters, a brother and a sister, so it wasn't like there was a whole ensemble that you have go between. 

Kate:                So how long did you spend with screenwriting? And then what made you decide to switch to writing a novel? And why was it this story that you wanted to tell as a novel, as opposed to as a screenplay? Do you think some stories are better told in one format or another?

William:          I do think some stories air better for the screen than they are for the Page. My journey with this was, you know, it was a screenplay that was getting some traction, you know, up until 2008, when the economy collapsed and financing went away. And independent shingles, you know, if the studios shuttered and have never come back and there was consolidation among, you know, the studios and on top of everything else, you know, Hollywood was, ah, polarized by a writer strike right about the same time.

The headwinds were just immense. I set it aside for a while and worked on some other things I continued to screenwrite. Got an agent in L. A. This is a small, character driven, intimate, you know, family saga drama, and that's not really a studio type of of story unless you can get, you know, a Laura Dern and a Jason Bateman in a package, you know, people are going to be confident in. And so she shops some of my larger stuff, which got great response. You know, we love the writing, it’s just not what we're looking for. I know that we all deal with rejection, and there, there was, you know, there is a lot of rejection, but you just to have to push through it. And you have to do it for the love of the writing, which I do. Nobody likes rejection.

Kate:                And It's so hard to get those. We love the writing, but this just isn’t right for us rejection. And I have gotten those before and oh... 

William:          You can die of encouragement in Hollywood.

Mindy:             I can't, I can't even imagine. Some of my family is involved in the film industry, as I said earlier, and - die of encouragement, that, that's about right. I mean, they oh, pulled their hair out. And I can't, I mean, I can't even imagine. I'm very pleased to be on the end of entertainment that I am on, even though it has some pitfalls and definitely is stressful. It is not film, and I am so glad. 

I have talked To so many people cause I've sold rights to film rights to a few of my books. And I have stopped announcing that. I have stopped telling fans when I sell rights, because then all they want to know is  - when’s the movie being made? And it's like, Is your movie out yet? And the answer is, Well, the answer is no and probably never. Like this is just how it works, right? I don't know what the percentage is, but the amount of books that are, the rights that are purchased that are actually turned into film is probably less than 1%. Like it's tiny. And, um, part of me very much resents the idea that having a movie made out of your book is like a step up. It's like graduating or an improvement. It's just like, No, the book itself is an end product. I'm a writer. This is what I'm proud of. 

William:          Therein is why I wrote the book. It's an end product. That screenplay is a mile short of how it is supposed to be experienced by an audience, and I got to the point where this the screenplay, got such great response. You know in film festival competitions where it won this, that and the other thing. And so, I knew I had a story that resonated with people, and I wanted to get it out to more people, and it wasn't gonna happen at that time. So I said, You know what? The book world, Mindy, I have to tell you, you are exactly right. The book world is so much more inviting and welcoming of stories because there's so much, so many more pipelines in so many more audiences that you know are looking for stories. And that's why I wanted to see this story in its final format and to be experienced in the way that it should be experienced in that format. 

Kate:                I've heard a screenplay explained as, It's a blueprint. It's like a blueprint for a house. I, um, actually just had a middle grade graphic novel come out that I co-wrote with a friend. It was released with DC In April. Actually, knowing screenwriting was really helpful for writing a graphic novel, and it's a very similar process because my co-author and I were, we wrote it. But we had an artist, you know who did the art. We, you know, saying what the visual should be, and we're having the dialogue. But she really her art really made it come alive. And, you know, you know, brought it to life, right? 

William:          Yes. I mean, again, you know, a screenplay is Ah, it's just the start of a long journey. And there are so many potholes along the way in terms of, you know, it's a fickle business, and anything can change until it's actually, you're rolling. Principal photography. All bets are off. 

Kate:                Did you ever consider, um, trying to direct it yourself, putting on that indie producer director hat? 

William:          At the time, I, uh I didn't think that I had the ability because I didn't. I had never done that before. I didn't have the ability to make it into the best film, it could be because, you know, it takes a team, um, of people who are skilled in in a lot of different areas. So I mean, I toyed with that a little bit in the, you know, the voice in the back your head says when you're going after financing - Well, what have you done? Nothing but trust me, you know? Yeah, nothing to sell. I wanted the material to be, to be done, and in the best way it could possibly be done. And I didn't think I was the person for that. 

Kate:                I think that was probably a good choice on your part. If you don't have a passion to direct and you don't see it, then I think a lot of times with creative fields, people look and they think I could do that. You know, everyone thinks they can write a novel. Everyone thinks they could do it. And it's like, Well, try, you know, if you feel strongly, you know, it’s definitely harder than it looks. 

Mindy:             I have so many people say to me, I've always wanted to write a book. I'm like, OK, go do it. 

William:          As a screenwriter. You know, you've, you've seen the movie a 1,000,000 times in your head and it will never be as perfect as it is in your head. And I think if you, unless you approach it as a director, it could be really difficult because you want to get the perfect shot that you see in your head and the clock is ticking and you have a schedule and we're getting behind schedule. We've got three more set ups to do today.

Kate:                You also hear the characters in your head of how they say something. And I have that problem with a short that I directed at film school. I received, like, an award so that they gave me money to direct a film. I would have fights with one of my not fights, but, like arguments within my actresses, she would, you know, say, Oh, I don't think it should be delivered this way. And I'd be like, Well, it should. 

Mindy:             Similarly, I don't listen to my own audio books because I know what characters sound like. I know how that line is delivered and my audiobooks are excellent. Everyone has told me their awesome, one of them, even won an award. And I'm like, That's cool. Plus, It's like I know what happens. I'm not gonna waste my time listening to the story.

So let's talk about the movement of bringing your story from the, you talked about why you chose to transpose it from a screenplay into a novel. What is the actual process like? What is what does that work look like? 

William:          Kate referenced it before. You know, screenplays are all about structure. So a screenplay, you know, typically, unless you're Quentin Tarantino, are it's a three act structure. And so I had a three act structure screenplay from which to work so well it provided, you know, a pretty detailed outline. And I was relieved to learn that, you know, a lot of novels are written in three act structure. So I took the screenplay and I actually had the screenplay here in front of me, and I started writing from one page onto the other inward and just I knew that I had to create the film that I saw in my head when I wrote the screenplay, and I've always been described as a very visual writer. You know, people who have read my screenplay say, Oh, I can see that. I saw the movie. And so that was very helpful in the novel world, because that's what you have to do. So I just literally went from, you know, page to page and ended up with a very crappy first draft. 

Kate:                That's what a first draft is supposed to be. 

William:          Well, good. I did it right then. 

Kate:                Yes. Yeah, that's a perfect first draft. It's bad, actually.

William:          I realized that there were things that I didn't know about. You know how to do this.

Kate:                How long was your first draft? Can I ask that? Was it super short? 

William:          How long, Like word count. It was about 85,000 words. 

Kate:                So it turned out long. And how long was, how many pages was the screenplay? 

William:          Screenplay was about 110 pages. 

Kate:                So, you obviously you found ways to fill in those blanks spaces and really add a lot. So did you add more Plot? Did you, or did you just...  Is that all the - I'm gonna go for it again – interiority?

William:          I discovered more things about Lenny and about John and about their back story. When you're given, you know, more range to work, the story can become broader and deeper. And character has always been the main focus for me in an approach to a story and what is character but the sum of their past? That is, they are. And so I was able to explore much more of her past, and I discovered that Lenny's mother died giving birth to her, which set her on a path from the beginning that was going to be a rocky one. And in the movie we know that her mother died, but we don't know how, we know the mother absent. And so I discovered that piece and it became a new thread in the story that I still hope to get the film made that I need to go back and weave into the screenplay.

But it was that kind of discoverability and the characters leading the places that allowed me to explore more of their interiority. The main problem I had when I found an editor and and ah, you know, it was kismet, that I found an editor in Montreal who just connected with this story, and I think that's so important to find an editor. Whatever it is an editor, an agent who gets your writing and kind of connects with, and she helped me to transition from approaching it as a screenwriter to a novelist, and it was a lot of POV issues. It's kind of a master class of learning how to maneuver that element of of novel writing. Yeah, so a godsend. 

Kate:                Just for listeners, I think it would be interesting. Could you, like, tell us how the very first scene or the opening of the screenplay translates into the opening of the novel?

William:          I could actually read the opening scene of the screenplay a little bit and then read the opening pages of the book. Is that? 

Mindy:             Oh, yeah, that would be great. 

William:          I’ll just read the first page of the screenplay. Is that good, or how long do you think—

Mindy:             That's great. 

William:          Exterior. Great Smoky Mountains Vista. Dawn. A peal of a distant church bell echoes through densely peaks framed by an awakening sky. Exterior, fog shrouded brick historic district, Dawn. The sound of the tolling bell closer now plays off antebellum brick buildings in the flinty foothills, home to tourist shops in the charming town square of Tennessee. Discover the bell and a steeple adorned with a host of heavenly angels and lovely stained glass windows. A glow in the soupy fog below a low 1980s Chrysler Cordoba sags in front of a former Civil War church, now a quaint bookstore called A Likely Story. It's angelic bell tower rising over the car. Interior. Chrysler Cordoba. Dawn. Slender legs raw with carpet burns, a blood flecked white magnolia crushed in the chaos of a woman's dark shoulder length hair. This is Eleanor Lenny Fields, 40. She's curled on the age tracked back seat and a tasseled sundress, her lavender polished toes clenched into little fists.

A cop suddenly at the window, hand on his gun. He wiped away dew shines his powerful mag lite. Inside, he tries the door. locked, watch his mag lite on the window, and Lenny sits bolt upright, a sweat soaked storm on her face. She sucks for air tries to get her manic bearings. She's probably pretty, if not for the red hot abrasion that weeps on her cheek and her left eye plum, purple swollen. She cracks the window an inch and says, “I'm good. I'm good.” Her soft Southern accent is all she'd recognize of herself at this moment. 

“I need you to unlock the door, ma'am.” She takes an uncertain moment to process that. Finally, she lifts the handle, pushes it open looks at the bookstore, she says. “I work here right there.” The cops says, “A likely story?” “Yes, sir, I read to the kids in the summer program.” She turns away and shame as his flashlight beam flashes her battered face and we match cut to the next scene.

William:          So that's how it read on the screenplay page. It takes a little longer to unfold, of course. In the book. 

A noise grated inside Lenny Riley's head when she flexed her jaw inside the station wagon. Grains crunched between her teeth, sand. Her mouth was bitter, dry as a bloody desert. As her thirst welled up, something gurgled, her lungs rising and falling. A bell tolled low and slow somewhere. She willed her eyes open, and the dimness would appear to be a swath of skin hanging overhead came into focus, but the ripped roof liner. She was curled in the cargo area bruised from her sweaty skin, toast clenched into stubby fists. Rolling onto her side, she stretched her legs. She couldn't remember falling, as a sharp clack clack clack on the glass next to her head instinctively sent her skittering into the opposite corner like a spooked deer.

From the outside. The car we hear. “Yeah, dispatch. She's moving.” She recorded the sound of a man's muffled voice outside as she glanced at the window to which she had scrambled. She was startled by something in a peripheral vision. What was that? Her brain registered a glimpse of something or someone there and gone. The disorienting instant was avalanche by a rapid succession of sensory assaults. Her cheek burned, heavy air, weight on her lungs, scraped legs. Swept a glance around the cage space found her turquoise died cowboy boots tossed on the other side. They instantly anchored her in the moment that she clung to the sight of them.

“I need you to open the door.” She squinted into a glaring flashlight outside as her sense of self preservation kicked into high gear. Police. Fractured thoughts converged as she unlocked the tailgate. “I'm okay,” she said in the strongest tone she could muster. The lilted Southern voice was the only thing she recognized about herself. She pushed the heavy swing door open with a bare foot and ran her hand through tangled hair, a finger catching in the white magnolia she clipped in last night. She unsnarled the tattered blood speckled flower and winced when she attempted to take a deep, calming breath.

And so that's how it gets into interaction with the cop.

Kate:                That was really interesting, because your first page of the screenplay has so much description. Like, I feel like you could have almost have just taken all of that description and just plopped it into a novel. But you totally change it. You know, you don't start with that, that wide, wide angle view of the mountains and then the town and then the car. 

William:          That’s an omniscient narrator, which is kind of frowned upon these days. So I started in Lenny's POV inside the car instead of outside the car. And that's what I mean by screenwriting is outside in and novel writing is inside out. 

Kate:                That's amazing. How that's, that, just reading those two really just shows that in, like, such stark contrast. That was really cool to just hear that. And you can just so see that. Yeah, thanks. Thank you. Definitely

Mindy:             That was a great illustration of how to transpose.

William:          It was interesting to, you know, just go page by page and work it in and then massage it wider and deeper. You know, that's kind of what the process was. 

Mindy:             How long did it take to move it from a screenplay to a novel? 

William:          All right. I didn't work on it, You know, constantly as I was doing my other day gig stuff, but two years, really, to get in into what I felt was... I always write toward whether it's a screenplay or a manuscript, something that is show-shape. Like, I wouldn't mind somebody reading this as opposed to being Oh, this is not ready. Right? So it was about a two year process. All told from the screenplay to the book. 

Kate:                Most listeners are aspiring writers. What would you say to someone who's listening and thinking? Ah, I always wanted to write a screenplay. You know, or Maybe I'll try that. I've tried writing novels. Maybe I'll try screenplays. Do you have any words of wisdom or our thoughts about that?

William:          Yes. Having you know, Been on the, on the mountain in both worlds. I would say that especially today with traditional filmmaking, the opportunity is a lot less because there's a lot less outlets. And, um, there's a lot more opportunity writing a book than there is a screenplay. And I would also say, Just generally, if you want to write, you know fiction and put your work out there, be prepared to deal with rejection. It's 99% rejection, but you only need the one. Yes, I've heard it said, And you know, some screenwriting podcast that what we do as writers, you know, whether it's in the book world or a screenwriting world is kind of insane. Really constantly Putting your heart out there and put your voice and put yourself out there, and you're constantly getting rejected, you know, for me, I have to write. Unless you have to write. Unless you have a story that is so powerful you're gonna have to believe and and stay with it for a long time. I would say Just go in it, you know, with your eyes open and be prepared for, You know, unless there's a lightning strike, it's it's gonna be It's gonna be a lot of work. 

Mindy:             It is a long haul. I don't know about Kate, but I have said to my listeners many, many times, even to get an agent. I was querying for 10 years, and I wrote my first novel... to get published was the fifth novel had ever written. I mean, it's a slog. It's really work. You gotta have, we call it rhinoceros skin, in the writing industry, you gotta have that rhinoceros skin and arrows have to bounce off of you.

Kate:                Yeah, For me, it was my third book that I found an agent and that was published and ah, it's totally difficulty and you have to slog through it. And you, definitely you become a better writer, The more you write. 

Mindy:             The book is called Someone to Watch Over by William Schreiber. It's compared to Where the Crawdads Sing and Sue Monk Kidd’s Secret Life of Bees, which, of course, are very well known, and it is available now. It released May 26 from Not A Pipe Publishing. Let the listeners know where they can find you online or on social media.

William:          My website is William Schreiber dot com, and I'm also on Goodreads at William Schreiber on Twitter is at Bill. Underscore Schreiber. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.