Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest. If you have specific questions feel free to post them on the page and I will answer them on the podcast.

This summer I'm adding a co-host, fellow author Kate Karyus Quinn. We'll be doing a series that focuses on hybrid and indie authors. If you're thinking of going the Self Pub route we've got authors who found success with six figure sales, as well as authors who are just starting out on the road to indie publishing. Learn from them. Learn with us.

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Kate:                So here we are and we are doing a post show...

Mindy:             I’m gonna put it in front of the show, but it's post chat because I.... Mindy... Mindy McGinnis has, uh, most of my listeners know this, but I am like, legitimately living somewhere where, like, people still have trunk phone lines and you can have... What is it called? Kate? What word am I looking for? I don't want to say trunk. I mean, that's what it is. 

Kate:                Telephone poles? 

Mindy:             Oh, yeah, we have those. We have those.

Kate:                Party lines?

Mindy:             Yeah, party lines. You know what that is, right? 

Kate:                Yeah, It's like from the 20s like when phones were first invented. Like you could listen into everybody else's phone call and be like...

Mindy:             We had that ride up into the 90s where I live. We had trunk lines right up until 96 97. Yeah, it was like I mean, today, there's no way, because, like, total violation of privacy, I don't even know. You’d pick up your phone and you could listen to your neighbor. You hear a click like you hear a click on the line, and you would know that someone was listening in.

Kate:                That's crazy. So not just like people in your house?

Mindy:             Like the neighborhood. Well, in my neighborhood, it's like, you know, you had four guesses. Like who it might be. So that's where I live. That's where I live. We had trunk lines right up until, like, mid to late nineties. 

Kate:                When did you stop using out houses?

Mindy:             Um, I have actually never used an outhouse, believe it or not. Uh, I've had running water my whole life. My parents grew up with running water. Interestingly enough, my mom has a great story. Her dad and mom got married, like in the twenties, and they were building a house. They built their own house. Well, my grandpa built it with his dad. He said we're getting indoor plumbing, like that's what we're doing. We're building this house with a bathroom. This is my grandfather on my mother's side. 

Kate:                The German one who just passed away? 

Mindy:             He passed away last week, yes. 

Kate:                I'm just gonna bring, I just bring all your sad stories. Is this the blue jay dude?

Mindy:             No, that was my great grandfather. That was his dad. And yes, he hated Blue Jays because he actually came over on the boat, right? So he spoke German, um, and English. But he did speak German often. And in his later age, my great grandfather, he would sit at the window and look out of his bird feeders. That was what he loved. And he hated Blue Jays. And he would get so upset. Gott dam, Blue Chays! He hated them so much So it's like, because they're bully birds, they bully the other birds away. There as bad as squirrels. And so, in my family whenever we see Blue Jays we’re like, Gott dam, Blue Chays!  But so yeah, I know my grandfather, he built his house and his father helped him, and when he said he wanted indoor plumbing, his father was completely mystified and said he didn't understand. He said, People used to want to shit outside and eat indoors and - because picnicking, I guess, was really big in the twenties -  and he was like, Now everybody wants to shit indoors and eat outside.

Kate:                That’s brilliant. That's amazing.

Mindy:             That's my Germans.

Kate:                My dad was actually, the house he was born in had a, um it had an outhouse like he remembers as a boy using an outhouse. And my dad is like, um, I think he's 71. 

Mindy:             He was a late adapter. 

Kate:                Yeah, So it was like a little house that my grand parents had built was like a little starter house. It's amazing to think, like not that long ago. No way. That is my nightmare. I don't even like going camping to camping grounds. One time my friends convinced me to go camping like they love going camping, cause it's like they hang out and they drink by the fire like it was okay. And then it was like time to go to sleep. and I was with Andy, my husband and we were in a tent together, and I was like, I'm afraid to get up and go pee at night cause it's dark. It was dirty in the bathroom was like, You had to walk to it so I waited--

Mindy:             Wait, wait, wait. But there was an actual bathroom?

Kate:                Yeah, but it wasn't like— 

Mindy:             You're not camping. 

Kate:                You had to walk to the bathroom—

Mindy:             You're not camping. That’s not camping. 

Kate:                No, it wasn't a nice bathroom. It was stalls and showers. I was-- 

Mindy:             Is there a roof on it?

Kate:                Yes. 

Mindy:             You're not camping.

Kate:                It was dirty!

Mindy:             I'm sure it was dirty. 

Kate:                I think if you stay in a motel that you like, are afraid to sleep under the sheets like that's camping, too. 

Mindy:             That's not... no, that's not camping. No, that is that is budget traveling.

Kate:                It’s technically like camping. I mean, very similar. 

Mindy:             Did you have a camper or did you have a tent?

Kate:                We had a tent. We were in a friend's tent. They brought a tent and air mattress for us. 

Mindy:             So you had an air-- Have you ever pissed in the woods, Kate? 

Kate:                No. Um, yes, when I was like in college once we were like, super drunk and I think we were like walking around outside and I think we, like, maybe peed outside.

Mindy:             But you don't remember? 

Kate:                No, not really.

Mindy:             If you just peed your pants, that doesn’t count. 

Kate:                I think we... I can't remember. But I think we went way out and quickly popped squat. I think that's terrible. I don't ever want to do that again. It's not good for girls. 

Mindy:             No, it's not easy. No, I mean it's there... it's a fair point that is not easy for girls, but there's a skill to it. There's a skill set that you learn so that you don't pee on your feet or your socks or your pants, but I mean, generally, I just take mine off. It's just easier. 

Kate:                You just take off your socks or your pants or everything. 

Mindy:             Everything. 

Kate:                So every time you have to pee, you take everything off. But aren't you afraid you're going to get bit by something?

Mindy:             You check that you're not gonna piss on a snake. 

Kate:                I feel like you wouldn’t notice--

Mindy:             I think you would. Listen, I mean, I think I think the basic rule of being outdoors has evaded you, which is always be aware of your surroundings. You can piss anywhere. Except the city cause you get arrested. 

Kate:                I’m not even talking about a snake what if it’s something small—

Mindy:             You mean like a bug? You can't—you’re way bigger than that bug. And so is your piss stream. It's scared of you. How would you feel if suddenly a huge ass hovered above you and a Waterfall of piss started? You're not going to go, you know, what, I’m gonna bite that. You're gonna run. 

Kate:                Fair point. 

Mindy:             OK? Every other living thing in the world also has instincts, and most of them are to avoid humans. 

Kate:                OK, now, there was something we were going to talk about. So can you please find a segway between the giant ass coming towards you and running away from it and segway that to the next topic? 

Mindy:             So, I mean great Segway here. If there were a giant ass in the sky, it would greatly impact your Internet connection. I have terrible internet for this particular recording. And so Kate actually did a wonderful job of keeping herself under control and guiding the conversation and basically being me. Ah, for the first, like, 10 or 15 minutes, because I was rendered mute at about a 45 second lag. So I just listened in. Yeah, and there was a terrible moment with nature in my closet, but you'll have to listen to get through it. 

Kate:                That's a good tease. Some nature thing happened. Yes, so speaking of self publishing, I had to go in yesterday and make some changes to one of the first books that I co published with Demetria Lunetta and our other friend Marley Lynn because it was flagged on Amazon for having some spelling errors on some punctuation things.

Yeah, so it was actually super helpful that this person did this because they found these things that I just... You know how it is when you read a book 5000 times and your eyes just glide right over Super simple mistakes, like a missing punctuation mark or using Then instead of than. At one point where we changed a character who had been female, we decided to make it a male, and so at one point, it's like refers to him as her, which is confusing. 

Mindy:            Pronouns were off.

Kate:                Yeah, right, so just nit picky little stuff. But, you know, it impacts the readers enjoyment of the book, and it pulls them out of the story. And I think some people more than others, I think there's some people who would never see it. And I think there's people who are hyper hyper aware of it, and it really, really bothers them. But the great thing is, we invested in Vellum, and we actually did this when we published Betty Bites Back with you and Demetria. The reason we did that was because we had stories, Short stories in verse. I wrote a short story in verse. Cori McCarthy did. 

Mindy:             They wrote one for us in verse. That was very powerful. Yes. Yeah, actually, I mean, I a credit many, many things to my recent breakup, but Cori's story is one of them.

Kate:                Really, you’ve never told me this before. 

Mindy:             Because I read it for Betty Bites Back. I read it and I was just like.. it's called You Wake Up Next to Him, right? 

Kate:                Mmhmm.

Mindy:             And I read that story when we were putting together that anthology, and I was just like, there was just a pit in my stomach that opened up because it was like, Well, that describes my relationship.

Kate:                Yeah, and that does not describe a healthy relationship.

Mindy:             Oh, no, I was just like, Well, I'm gonna keep that to myself.

Kate:                You never said that. That's really interesting. So somebody Betty Bites Back, I don't know if your listeners know, is our feminist anthology of horror stories. I was in charge of formatting it because I guess I drew the short stick.

Mindy:             No, I think you volunteered.

Kate:                Actually, I think I was like, Oh, I know how to do this now because I had formatted My first Indy book, The Show Must Go On. And for that I used a free online program through a website called Reedsy, and it worked really well. But I found out when I tried to do use the same program for our Betty Bites Back that it just would not format the poetry. Like trying to get the poetry to format correctly was just horrible. It wanted to make every line like the start of a new paragraph or didn't want to space it like, it was just very confused about like what poetry was and how it's supposed to look and wanted it to look like prose.

I did research, and, um, I found Vellum and I fell in love. It's a beautiful program. It's laid out so perfectly. It's so user friendly. I did not have to read any directions. I loved it. And, you know, it can be a difficult formatting wise to put together an anthology of short stories. And it wasn't. Vellum made it really, really easy. And it looked beautiful and it looked professional. And I can't take credit for, like the program, does it all it you know, you just upload your documents, and as long as you have your document, if you have your chapters laid out and they're at the top of the page, it makes it so easy to add to your back matter and all. You know your front matter stuff that you need your copyright page automatically formats for you. It's amazing, and so I've done all of our books since then on Vellum. My only quibble is I wish it was available for PC. 

Mindy:             Working with you on the Betty Bites Back anthology, I came to be aware of Vellum. And I thought, Hey, I wonder if they would want to advertise on the podcast. So, you know, full disclosure. I had reached out to Vellum and asked them if they wanted to partner with the podcast. And they did And so that's fantastic. But it was so funny when they said yes that I remember I was posting to you over text. And I was like, Hey, Vellum said yes, and they’re in and you, like, had a fan moment. You were so excited that Vellum was going to sponsor the podcast because you were so enamored of them. 

Kate:                I was! I was like, Oh, my God, tell them I love them! as what I did. Uh, no, but it really is. It's a beautiful program. It's just very clean looking. The way it's laid out, it's really... know I am gushing. I am a fan girl. And there was, like an upfront purchase cost. It's just a one time thing, and then you own it, which is brilliant. You know, I'd so much rather do that than, you know, have a company slowly bleed me out at, like, $10 a month for the rest of time. 

Mindy:             We better we better segue into Tara now and get her on. She has a great accent. By the way, you get to listen to an Australian. 

Kate:                Mm, I know. Always a positive. 

Mindy:             And, we'll bring on Tara so that people can ah, listen to her instead of us.

Kate:                Okay. So yeah, tell us about yourself and you're writing and what you do. And if your pants have ever been on fire. 

Tara:                Fantastic. Yes. So I'm Tara East, and I am a writer, scholar and author of the novel Every Time He Dies, so at the moment right now, I'm actually doing my doctorate in creative writing, and I'm teaching at the university where I am doing that doctorate. But prior to that, I actually did a master's program and the product of that was Every Time He Dies. And the novel is essentially a mystery novel. But if you wanted to get down into, like, the weeds of genre, you could describe it as a soft boiled crime novel with paranormal elements.

So basically, the novel is about a woman named Daphne who finds a watch on the beach that is the exact replica of her deceased boyfriend’s. The watch is haunted by a Ghost with amnesia, and while she's trying to uncover his identity, she becomes involved in her Estranged Fathers homicide investigation. So it took me about seven years and a couple of different writing courses to write the novel and part of the reason why is because in the writing I was teaching myself how to write. So for that seven years, I became just completely obsessed with writing, just devouring craft novels, YouTube videos, podcasts, blogs, everything that I could find that could support me through the writing process. So sort of like doing that independent study. But then I was also bringing in mentors, teachers, lecturers, editors who could really help me with the Craft once I had taken the story as far as I could take it.

Kate:             Seven years is a long time to be writing one book, and often you hear advice that you know you have to write that practice book that gets put, you know, under the bed or, you know, left in, uh, dusty corner of your hard drive. Um and you know, you move onto something else and you write another book and you know, that was very much my experience. And I know it was Mindy's as well that, we have books that we wrote and then we set them aside and we wrote more, and we learned a little bit more of every book until we were published. What made you decide to the stick with this one book and keep hammering away at it? 

Tara:                Well, I think two things. Firstly, the novel changed so much through the course of that seven years, and I might actually come back to that point. But the reason why I stuck specifically with this book and I do think it's really important that a writer knows why they're writing a book, and for me, I actually had a very personal reason. I had a very close friend pass away after a very long and very serious illness, and when she passed away, I was just struck with this level of grief, and I didn't really know what to do with it. I had dabbled with writing prior to that, and I have a background in journalism, and I had always wanted to write a novel, and there was a part of me that thought that writing a novel would be such a great way to process my grief and to create something out of that grief and because my friend was the same age as me, when she passed away, I had this real moment of - as we all do - your sense of your own mortality. And I had always wanted to write a novel, and suddenly there was a new urgency around that, and I knew that I had to get onto that as soon as possible. And, of course, the first thing on my mind to write about was grief.

Kate:                That would be a difficult thing. Then, once you start writing with your friends in mind, too, to be like, Well, just a practice book. Put it under, you know, get rid of it and move on to the next thing. You really felt that emotional connection like you had to see it through. 

Tara:                Absolutely. I feel like it had a really sense of purpose behind it. And of course I do definitely want to mention that the novel is not a fictionalized version of my life. It is absolutely fabricated. There may be a wink here or there towards a friend of mine, but the novel is fictional, like all of the characters are fictional, their beliefs and their thoughts are not necessarily my own, but -- 

Kate:                You have not had any ghostly encounters in your life? 

Tara:                Well, maybe there's been one or two, but no, definitely not to a degree that Daphne has experienced. 

Kate:                We are in the midst of a series of podcast where we are talking about self publishing, and we've been talking a lot, um, with various authors, about why they chose to self publish over, traditionally published and what their experience is. And, and we have talked to authors who are in various stages of this. We've talked to authors who've been doing it for years and are making very good income doing it. We have talked to authors who are more at the beginning. How long has your book been published, and what made you decide to go the indie route?

Tara:                So, Every Time He Dies came out in November last year, so I'm definitely at the beginning off my indie publishing career, and I think I was probably about halfway through the novel when I discovered Joanna Penn’s podcast, as many indie authors do. And that was my lead in to self publishing. And as I continued to work on the Novel and I continued to research traditional options versus self publishing, it became very obvious to me that I wanted to go the self publishing route. But for full transparency, I was working with an editor at the time, and she really encouraged me to try traditional publishing. I put a few feelers out there and got close, sort of twice to a deal. Thankfully, it fell through because I still really in my heart. I still really did want to self publish. I knew that the creative control was really important to me as well as, of course, the the lucrative aspect of it.

And I think the thing people really need to think about when they’re tossing up between self publishing and traditional is you really need to know what your goals are as an author, if you want prestige or awards or if you want to be in bookshops, those are some reasons why somebody might go traditional. But of course, I do also want to add the caveat that even if you are traditional and you get into a bookstore, that book may only be in that store for like, three months. So you really need to make sure you do your research because we have these concepts and these ideas about what being a traditionally published author means. And you just need to make sure that you have the most up to date information and that you're not sort of living in the golden age of how it used to be.

So I think you just really need to research around those two different options and to really know themselves because, of course, being indie means that you also have to do everything by yourself, and you have to have the capital up front to pay for everything. And I fully acknowledge that for some people that may not be possible. So traditional publishing, may be a better option. The other thing with being an Indy is that, of course, you have to do all the marketing yourself and build an author platform, and you also have to find all of the professionals to hire so that you can create a really good product. So hiring a cover designer and editor an interior formatter, if you choose to do that option as well, that you really need to decide. Am I the kind of person who has the energy to do all of this and am I Tech savvy, and do I have the funds to do it? So I think you really need to know yourself and know what your goals are. 

Kate:                Absolutely. And it definitely sounds like you did your researching. You have been looking into this for several years, so it wasn't something that you just decided To jump into. In terms of marketing since you mentioned it briefly, can you talk a little bit more about how you handled marketing? Being a brand new author? A lot of times, you know, when you start indie publishing, you'll see the main advice given To new authors to market their book is, you write the next book, and often indie success seems to rely heavily on being able to write quickly and publish quickly to constantly be having new books come out, which in turn helps boost your backlist. I was hoping you could speak a little bit to that because seven years is rather long to write a novel. Though I assume you're, for your 2nd one will not take as long since the first was a learning one. But yeah, How are you approaching all of that? And what is your publishing schedule going forward for future books? 

Tara:                I definitely have an experimental mindset so prior to releasing Every Time He Dies, I actually wrote a trilogy under a pen name so that I could teach myself how you actually self publishing, how you actually market. And that was really useful for me, for two reasons. One, I discovered it was very difficult to market under a pen name because everything has to be secret and you can't talk about yourself. And the second thing I learned was that it was very difficult to market when you have no author platform. Now, unfortunately, I had Been building my author platform for about three years prior to releasing my novel. So that was posting weekly writing advice blogs on my website, and about 18 months ago I started You Tubing and I became a part of the author tube movement.

And so for me and knowing my budget, I chose to focus heavily on that content marketing side of things rather than paid advertising, though I fully acknowledge that that will most likely have to change because of all of the changes that have happened on Amazon. But this is another thing people need to consider is you really need to start your author platform as soon as possible. You need to really start finding ways to build your email list like that's the most valuable thing you can have as an author because you own that. You don’t actually own--

Kate:                Yeah we have that a ton of times. Every author has talked about, yes, the importance of the email list. 

Tara:                In terms of like the rapid release model. I knew that these books were not books that I could write in, say, a month’s time, especially considering just with my own personal obligations as a scholar. But I absolutely know that the second book is not going to take as long as the first book, because in that first book like you mentioned, I was learning how to write. Sometimes I do feel that the advice, I’ll just write the next book can be problematic, because if your first book isn't very good and if it doesn't sell very well, there's no evidence to prove that the 2nd one will either. So I do feel like that advice is a little bit prescriptive, and it doesn't really take in the nuance of readership and and publishing. I do also want to mention that there are some outliers out there like, say, Jenna Morrissey. She's she doesn't follow the rapid release model, and yet she has a very big platform. So there are people who are not prescribing to the rapid release model and still making a living off it now. Maybe she is the exception to the rule, but it's possible. That's just also important for people to know that this sort of prescriptive advice can be a little bit dangerous and could be a bit like boxing in. 

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Kate:                I would love to hear more about how you are selling your books locally, because that is not something that we have talked about very much yet on the podcast. But I have seen in groups like Facebook groups like 20 Books to 50k, people talking about actually doing very well selling paperback copies of their books. I think logistically, it's quite a bit more difficult than selling E books, you know. Generally speaking, you have to pay to print the books yourselves, paying upfront for your stock, you're having to store your stock, and then you also are in a very real way becoming a sales person.

And I personally hate hand selling. It's It's so uncomfortable. I have a very difficult time when I end up in a bookstore event, where they want to seat me at a table in the bookstore for a signing. People come into the store and they kind of look at you and then they look away quickly, like they don't want to be sucked in with that salespitch. It's just uncomfortable. And if you're a good salesperson, you take the moment and you kind of call them or, you know, you try to do it. And I am just, like, as deeply uncomfortable and I'm like, yes, run away. This is weird for both of us. Just go do your thing and I will continue to sit here. Once I had, like, a parent bring up their little one and be like, Look! it is a real life author! Like, I was like an animal at this zoo, and I was like, Yes, I am. Hello, child. You too come someday Sit at a table in a bookstore and question the meaning of life. Can you talk a little bit about what you're doing, How you're doing it? If it's killing your soul? 

Tara:                Absolutely. That's so good that you share that, though, because that's such a good anecdote about you need to know yourself. So if you are not super into hand selling than maybe just focus all of your marketing online. However, like for me, selling locally was really useful. And part of the reason why I decided to build that into my marketing strategy is because I have a background in journalism. So I know how hungry newspapers, radio stations and TV stations and magazines and local news, especially those daily media outlets where they're trying to turn stuff out every single day.

So for that reason, I approached my local newspaper and they ran an article on me. then I approached local magazines and because I again have that background in journalism. I wrote all the copy and I sent them all of the photographs and images so literally all they had to do was say yes and hit publish. And then I approached local radio stations as well. So I was doing all of this. And in addition to that, I did an official book launch at a prominent books shop in Brisbane. And that was such a good way to, of course, physically celebrate the release of the novel. But to also get my book into that store and to make contact with readers in the city where the novel was set.

So all of that stuff is very sort of strategic marketing. And What came out of this, which was actually quite a surprise and I did not factor this in in any way, was that by doing all of this local media and by having my book in a couple of different independent bookstores is that local book clubs are now reading my book as part of their book club. So you're, You're also tapping into all of  that readership that I would never... like, you can’t Market to those people, if you know what I mean. When you are marketing online you’re marketing to your ideal reader, you will have somebody in mind a type of reader. But it's still in many ways, you're casting stuff out there into the Internet, and you can be as informed as possible and strategic as possible. And you still don't really know if it's gonna work.

But then, by doing this local meatier stuff like, because it's such a small scale and because you are part of the community that you are marketing to, you have sort of this insider knowledge and you know what you need to be saying in order to tap into that market because it's such a small scale. And I have been surprised by how effective that has been, because obviously from the get out, I didn't know if it was gonna land. Now it has been pleasantly surprising. So I do feel like if you're the kind of person who, if you're a writer, you're probably an introvert. But I can become extroverted when I need to. So if you also have that skill and if you're not too uncomfortable about hand selling, I do think it's a really viable option that people need to explore.

Kate:                Can you just talk a little bit more about though, the nuts and bolts of getting your book into bookstores? Because I think that is something that a lot of people have a lot of trouble with, or that bookstores are resistant to taking on indie books or that they get inundated with requests from indie authors, and so sometimes it's quite difficult to convince them to do that. So what was your strategy there?

Tara:                I have different strategies, depending on the store. So stores in my local town, I actually went in in person with one copy of my book, plus a press kit that had all of the information about my book in it. So inside that press kit, I had a blurb about the book. I had the sort of like fact sheet information about it. How many words? Ah, an image of the cover the type of genre that it was, the target audience. And then I also had an image of myself and my own bio in there as well as, like social media links and my website and contact information. So that was all in my press kit, and then I would go into the bookstore. I would introduce myself. I would show them my book, give them my press kit, and I would talk to them.

Now, most of the time, I already knew that they were open to having self published authors and having local events in the store. So I knew that they were likely to say Yes, so I would go in and I would give them my spiel, tell them about the book, talk through what kind of arrangements they have with other local indie authors, and and that's how it happened in my hometown.

But how it happened when I was approaching bookstores in the city is that I would often have - I fully appreciate that not any everybody can do this - but I would often have some kind of a link to the store like I would know somebody who worked in the store or I had run into one of the store managers at an event there was some kind of like linking connection. So then I would put that into the body of an email, and then I would send a digital copy again of my press kit and a very professional and polite email requesting that they have my book in stock and everybody has said yes. But the thing is, you need to really write a professional email, and what you need to include in that email is again the synopsis of your book. But keep it quite brief, like think elevator pitch one or two sentences, just yourself say why their readers, the people who are their customers, will want to read this book. And again, you keep that to two or three sentences, and that's the thing that is going to make people pay attention because you've got a professional email and you're saying how they are going to benefit off having your book in store.

Mindy:             I’ve got to tell you that, Ah, even though I missed like the 1st 10 minutes, I'm sitting here in my closet, and that's where I do all of the recordings. And Kate knows I was outside, like pretty much all day cause it's the only decent day we've had lately And I was gardening and I told Kate, you’ve got to tell me when it's time for me to go inside so that I can get this podcast set up and she's like, Okay, so she did and I came in and I'm sitting here and I'm getting everything set up and I looked down and I have a tick on my boob. 

Kate:                On your what?

Mindy:             My boob, Kate, It was on my boob.

Kate:                Oh, my gosh. I thought you might have said Boot. And I was like, That's not so bad. 

Mindy:             I definitely missed about five minutes, maybe 10 of your conversation, because he wasn't attached yet. He was still making a run for it, and I'm like, I got to get it NOW. And so I just kind of bolted and I ran in the bathroom, and then I stripped down and did a full body check. But everything seems to be okay, I don't appear to have anything attached. So anyway, that's what I was doing. While you guys were, oh and Kate, You were doing a great job of being fake Me. You were so like on task. 

Kate:                And you are so turned on by fake Mindy—

Mindy:             I was so turned on by fake me that I had to run to the bathroom and strip off all of my clothes and do a tick check. That’s how I react to arousal. It doesn't work in a lot of situations. 

Kate:                Tara,    this is our sense of humor. So sorry. 

Tara:                I'm loving it. Just feel like I'm listening in on a chat. Friends. It's good.

Mindy:             This all factors into Mindy's single life. Um, I was, I was listening in to your conversation and one of the things that I wanted to ask you about Tara, you're talking about marketing. You are in Australia and you are writing in kind of the mystery market. And I wondered, of course, Amazon being the big you know, Father of all things is marketing different for the indie author working out of Australia vs an indie author that is working with Amazon in America.

Tara:                It's funny. As soon as you started talking about all of that, the first thing I thought of was, you know, when I was first writing the book, it was a really big deal to me where I set it because I was a little bit afraid that setting a novel in Australia might alienate American readers. And that hasn't been the case. I have actually had a really good sales in America, which has Been a lovely surprise. Um, but what I have noticed, actually, and if there are Australian authors listening, I feel like with the Australian market, it is actually really, really important that you tap into your local market because my novel is set in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. What has really helped me has Been reaching out to local independent stores, running in person events at independent bookstores and also at, um at restaurants at universities and things like that that has actually really helped. And people really enjoy that stuff.

And, you know, this might actually go against what a lot of indie authors sort of think about where they so focused on online marking marketing, which, of course, you absolutely need to do. But I think you also need to tap into your local market, particularly if you ah, I want to say, if you're outside of America, it's it's really important that you tap into your local readership, especially if your novel is set in that location than tap into the readership who live in that location. The feedback I've gotten from Australian readers is that they have loved reading a book, a mystery novel, a crime novel set in Australia and particularly set in Brisbane. Because it's not a very popular location. Most of our crime novels set in Melbourne or Sydney.

You do need to think about where is your book set? Who is its readership and then trying to target that readership. Because I have to admit, when I decided to go to indie, I did wonder if being Australian was going to be a hindrance, I mean being Australian, Ah, the book being set in Australia. And I'm glad to see that that hasn't been the feedback at all, that I've gotten off anybody and that American readers have actually really enjoyed reading a novel that is set somewhere else. And I mean, of course, we're both Western countries, so there's so much crossover. But there's enough of a difference that it has that feeling off. I almost want to say exotic, but that would be a little bit of a stretch, but there is enough of a difference that is interesting and intriguing. But of course, there's so much overlap because we are both Western countries. 

In terms of Amazon, the thing that has Been perhaps most frustrating is that the reviews from one platform don't necessarily cross over to the other. So if I get reviews on the Australian Amazon platform, they don't appear on the American platform and things like that. So there's nothing I can really do about that now that those two platforms are separated and we have Amazon, Australia vs Amazon in the US. But that is just something that maybe people need to be aware of. And what you can do to counter that is to approach Book Reviewers yourself prior to the release of your novels, sending out ARC copies, probably e book copies, because that's the economically clever decision. But reaching out to book bloggers and book reviewers on instagram and YouTube and sending them a copy of your book and trying to get reviews that way, rather than just relying on Amazon reviews. And the good thing about book reviewers, Independent Book Reviewers, is most of them read your book for free, and most of them will publish their review on their Web site, their YouTube channel, or what have you. And they will also copy and paste those reviews onto goodreads and to Amazon. And that is actually one of the best ways to get around that issue off being outside of America and not being able to have your reviews on all the Amazon platforms. If that makes sense.

Mindy:             So Tara, you have then a listing for your book and your author profile on amazon dot com like us and amazon dot com, I assume it's aus? You okay, so they’re separate and you can't, They can't be blended like Do you have to view your sales separately then and everything like that? 

Tara:                Yeah. Um, I haven't gotten into paid advertising yet, but absolutely, I have two author pages. I had to upload my novel separately onto Amazon au into Amazon America, as well as all of the other countries that I wanted to publish in. You have to upload everything separately, so yeah, it was quite funny that it's the one company, but that in each country its separate. So that is something people need to be aware of.

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Mindy:             So Kate obviously has had, and we all have had some horror stories about table selling. I have had. I believe at this point in my career I have had three events that zero people showed up to, and that's okay. It's okay. Even the first time that I happened, I was just like, Oh, well, because I was showing up at a library and they were paying me to show up. So, you know, I got paid anyway. It wasn't a huge blow, and also, I think we all need our ego pricked every now and then, so I think it's actually kind of healthy and good for you.

But for the most part, I actually really enjoy table selling because I am very much. And Kate can tell you this, very much, a mix of intro and extroverts. When I am extroverted, it is on, like that switch goes, ON. It goes off. There's no in between. And so I'm really good at it. And I had to actually carry a little bit of shame around inside because of it, because it does feel dirty when you're good at it. It feels kind of dirty. But I mean, I can usually sell just about whatever stock they've put on my table, when I go to an event like that.

I can say, even though I am traditionally published, when I first was going out and you know, beating streets and trying to put myself in front of librarians and in front of booksellers, I learned really quickly that when I walked in the door, I had to say that I was with Harper Collins, that I was being published by HarperCollins because I would walk in and I would say Hi, I'm a local author and their faces just closed. I watched it happen. They were just like... and I'm out. Like they're librarians, booksellers, no matter what it was, they were just done because they have been inundated with local authors whose products had not gone through any quality control. And they've been burned. Over and over and over. And so I do think that that is a stumbling block, that indie authors face when it comes to moving physical copies of the book.

And I agree that the only way that you can combat that is by presenting yourself as professionally as possible. I've talked to other indie authors that have gotten reviews from, say, a fellow author in the genre that is very well known, a traditionally published author, that they just happen to be able to have a connection where they were able to get that Or, as you were saying, even just knowing someone in the store, someone that can vouch for you. And it's interesting to me, that in the end, indie, traditional, self-published, whatever, networking is just so important. 

Tara:                It absolutely is. I definitely acknowledged, that is, some poor bookstores are absolutely inundated with local authors whose books have not been properly edited who have terrible covers and all of those sort of like horror, horror things. And I think this is again where indie authors really need to make sure that they are putting up quality products that are as good as traditionally published. All those, so hiring a cover designer and having a really great cover made and then making sure that they have proper editing, structural editing, copy editing and proof reading and that the book actually looks like a proper traditional book by having the interior formatting done. I don't know if it's a lack of knowledge or a lack of laziness. I'm not sure how why it happens, but some people do walk into a bookstore, and I know I've gone into bookstores and seen you know, the little local author the tag on the front of the book, and it doesn't need the tag. You can tell. It hasn’t be... you know. You can tell.

And it's so sad, and I don't know if it's just a lack of knowledge or a lack of money or technical skill. But I do feel that indie authors, in many regards are lifting their game. But of course there is still all of the, all of the not so great products that are being put out there. So, yeah, it's definitely, And I think the only way to combat it is by showing up in being professional, assuring the manager that you have done all the correct steps and then, like you mentioned before actually having quotes from other authors who were prominent in the field, who have read your book and liked it. I actually didn't mention that, but that was in my press kit as well. So I had several local, traditionally published authors who had read my book and said very lovely things. I had quotes from them in it, and the reason why I targeted traditional but well known local authors in my area is because I knew that the bookstore owner had those books in store. They knew that author's name. They knew who they were either by name, or were in person. So that meant something. And it was a way to validate my work.

Kate:                On one hand, you have this book that you spent seven years writing, and it's very personal to you, and you have this whole reason about why you wrote it. It's It's all like the emotional writer stuff, you know that you hear, it's a book of your heart. But on the other hand you have this very business like way that you've approached publishing it and getting it out into the world. How do you reconcile those two different things and, you know, using those two different parts of your brain? And how do you balance that?

Tara:                That is such a great question. How I sort of perceive it is that the making of the book, that's when I was in the creative zone, the imaginative zone tapping into the emotions, exploring my own grief and processing that. So all of that sort of, um, you know, the artist that side of me was what was fully engaged when I was writing the book, editing the book, and once I had taken the book as far as I had, as I could take it. And once I go through beta readers and editors and stuff, actually should say during that process of going through beta readers and editors, how you see, the book does start to change and you start to like... I still loved the story and I confess I would be editing it, and I would kind of get caught up in it, which is such a strange sensation.

But, um, but still, how you start to see the book... I don't know if it's a detachment. Maybe that's what's starting to happen. But you do stop to realize, like, Wow, I've moved out of the art making and now this thing has become a product. And I think that how I was able to move over into that sort of business minded, marketing minded mindset and it was by seeing the book is a product now. And it it's not a baby. It was my baby when I was writing it, But now it's this thing that is done and people can buy it, enjoy it. And I think that's how I was able to do that.

Kate:                Once you were in that analytical mind set, what... did you get to a point where you were like, Oh, wow, if I had started out writing at this analytical thing, maybe I would have written a different book, mysteries that are X y Z. Or maybe I would have added a romance element. Or maybe I would have another genre or another some twist of it that would have made it more marketable, um, hotter book.

Tara:                 I totally understand what you're saying, and it's interesting because I tried to write a follow up straight off to this book. And because I knew how to write, by this point, I created a really strong outline. I started writing it and it was immediately dead because I was too much in that analytical mind set. And now that's me, personally. Again, every author writes differently. So obviously for me, I do need to be a little bit more of a Discovery writer, and I need to have that emotional aspect engaged when I'm writing.

Here's the thing about writing, whether you're traditionally published or indie like You have no control over what's gonna happen to the book once it's published and it's done, you don't know if it's going to sell well, so bad. And the thing is, in order to be happy, you really need to write the book that you want to write because, think about it. How bad would it be if you spend a year or two years or five years writing a book for market, you're not really into it, and then it gets published. It hits bank, and all of a sudden you're committed to this genre and this story, all the Series that you're actually not even into, like you don't even like it.

And in that regard, I kind of feel like you might as well go get a day job because it’d be easier and gets consistent money. So, you know, that's my sort of thinking about it. I really do feel like the writing has to be for you, and you should write the story of your heart and write the book that you want to read. But when that book is done, that's when you get to step into being marketing business minded side of things. That's how I view it anyway. But I'm well aware that there are people out there doing the rapid release model writing books that aren’t the books of their heart, that are just moneymakers. So I know that that stuff is happening, but it's not something that I would do. 

Kate:                That makes sense. Yeah, I think, I think they're You know, I see a lot of people who are rapid release, and I think they do still find, they still do really love the writing. I think we have to at some point enjoy it, cause, like you said, there are definitely other ways to make money that are easier than this. I don't know. I think if I wrote a book I didn't like and it made gobs and gobs of money, I would keep writing and, you know, just used the cash to blot my tears.

Tara:                Yes. What a terrible problem to have. 

Mindy:             I think I could do it. Money is not terribly absorbent. But if I had enough dollar bills, I think I could soak up. I Think if I ever end up in this situation where I'm using money for something other than currency, I think, I think I'm gonna be okay. Like I'm sitting here thinking about what else could I do with it? Because they always show people like burning it or whatever. And I'm like, That's, that's old. Rolling around in it naked. I would use it to like Oh, I don't know, use a like sandbags like stop overflow of water or something, Right?

Kate:                Smashing ticks. 

Mindy:             I flushed it down the toilet. I always flush it down the toilet and I have nightmares about huge like colony of mutant ticks living in my septic system. That's ah, probably gonna be, that's probably how I die. I have already decided.

Kate:                I’ve never had one on me. I'm a suburbs girl, So that’s kind of scary. 

Mindy:             I know you are. You know, you're a hardcore suburbs girl. I’m surprised We get along. 

Kate:                But we do. 

Mindy:             We do. Yes, it’s because you teach me how to take care of my skin and nails and I just make sure you don't die. So anything else that you would like to add here before we sign off, I think most importantly, can you let listeners know where they can find you online and where they can find your book?

Tara:                Absolutely. You can find out everything about me on my website taraeast.com On there I post Weekly writing advice blogs which cover a range of topics from inspiration, motivation, business and marketing advice, as well as time management and productivity tips, which is a personal passion of mine.

And I also have a YouTube channel where I also post all of the same content but just in video form. And my book Every Time He Dies is available everywhere online, so you really don't have to hunt too hard for it. But of course, all of the links are also on my website. And if you aren't really sure if the book is for you or not, you can actually download the 1st three chapters for free off the website so that you can have a little sneak peek and try before you buy. Also on social media. Of course. I'm on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook under Author Tara East.

Kate:                Yes, and I'm looking at the cover of your book, and it is a gorgeous cover. I really, really love it. Beautiful.

Tara:                Thank you very much. Yeah, the designer worked hard on it, so I really appreciate that. It is gorgeous, and I've got a lot of feedback on that. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.