Mindy:             We're recording this on June 9th and we have a Super fun guest coming on. Usually I host writers and screenwriters, play writers, like you know something in the publishing industry, but today we have Rob Angel, the creator of Pictionary. 

Kate:                Well he is a writer too now Because he wrote a book about it. 

Mindy:             He is a writer too now because he has a book coming out all about how Pictionary became a thing. So we're super excited to have Rob Angel coming on to tell us about Pictionary and how it came to be a thing, cause I mean, I don't know about you, Kate, but, you know, I grew up in the eighties, and so Pictionary, like that's that was a go to for us.

Kate:                Yeah. I don't like remember, life without Pictionary like that was like one of the staple games that you would have. 

Mindy:             Yeah, it was like Pictionary, Monopoly. My family had Trivial Pursuit. That was Ah, we were uh, I've always been, like, an over educated farmer.

Kate:                We were not Trivial Pursuit family. We were really into Scategories. I really liked Scattegories.

Mindy:             We had a game. Did you have a game called Bargain Hunter? 

Kate:                No, I remember we had Don't Break the Ice. Oh, yeah. You know, one of those kiddy games that are like, um, everyone I remember when we were kids. One of the biggest games was, um, Mousetrap, which was, like not a fun game to play. It was only fun to build the mousetrap like the game itself was really boring. But then, like you once you got the mousetrap together. It was super fun to put the mousetrap together. 

Mindy:             We played, I didn't have Mousetrap. I didn't have Candy Land. We played Monopoly and we played Trivial Pursuit. And we played this game called Bargain Hunter. Like I said, And then there was a game and it was like from the fifties or the sixties, because it was my mom's game when she was a kid and it was a Barbie board game, and it was all about like, you... 

Kate:                trying to get a husband? 

Mindy:             No It was for like a high schooler. Yeah, and it was all about, like, getting, you know, it was set up like a Monopoly board, and you would play it and would be like, Oh, no, your hairdo is ruined in the rain, Go back five spaces. 

Kate:                Was it all like, sort of like fifties type misogyny like your Oh, and your job is to look beautiful make babies and keep the men's happy?

Mindy:             It definitely didn't have babies cause it was for teenagers, but it was all. Like, you know, your manicure is ruined. Go home and cry in your bed, you know? But it was a Barbie board game, and it was kind of fun. And you... I mean, I hate that I'm talking about this like, I really enjoyed it. But I did. Oh, yeah. You know, you wanted Ken. You wanted Ken to be your date to the prom, But sometimes you drew Poindexter. Poindexter was the dork. Oh, my God. I found it. Okay, I found it. The Barbie game. It was first made in 1961. Oh, my gosh. Okay, hold on. It's called. Oh, my God. OK, it's actually called the Barbie game Queen of the prom. 

Kate:                Oh, my gosh. That's so fun. It really should be, though, Like, there's no Poindexter. Like when we played Barbies and we played Barbies a lot. I have four sisters. We have, like, a bucket o Barbies. And, um, it would always be like, you know, 20 Barbies and two Ken dolls, and they would have to all fight over the Ken, so it should really be like Ken didn't ask you to prom. You're going with one of your girlfriends and will slow dance together. Like there's no Poindexter in the Barbie world. 

Mindy:             Oh, no, This is, This is fun. It gets worse. OK, so it's called the Barbie Game queen of the prom. A fun game with real life appeal for girls. Um, it says get a boyfriend, formal dress and be elected as club president. 

Kate:                It does seem like the thing I would have enjoyed as a little girl like that would be totally on brand. But now, as an adult, I'm sickened by it.

Mindy:             I know but damn was a fun game. I'm looking at it now. And I'm like, Oh, my God. Okay, Sorry.

Kate:                But the 90s also had, like, that shopping mall game, which I think I was a little old for that, but I think my younger sisters had it. Do you remember like, that shopping mall game? I can't remember. It was like a huge nineties thing. It was very much like on TV and stuff.

Mindy:             Are you sure it wasn't Bargain Hunter? Because Bargain Hunter was all about shopping.

Kate:                This was definitely mall. It was very pink. there was very mall focused.

Mindy:             I don't I definitely don't remember that one. 

Kate:                I definitely think somebody will. Do you have, like, a away for? Um Uh, well, nobody can call in because we're recording this, but I feel like someone needs to, like, message us about the mall game. And somebody is listening. 

Mindy:             And if you're listening. And you remember the mall game tweet at me or Kate. I'm @Mindy McGinnis, And you are?

Kate:                @KateKaryusQuinn 

Mindy:             All right, I found another one. Do you remember Mystery Date?

Kate:                Mall Madness! I found it! 

Mindy:             I'm throwing more like, totally sexist and really fun games at you.

Kate:                Mystery Date sounds... is that's an older one, right? Like that old... 

Mindy:             1965. So you get like, Oh, my God, I love this game. Okay, so I spent a lot of time in my grandma's house. OK, So you have cards. There's, like a door, like a white little plastic door in the middle of the game. You open it and it shows you who your date is. And there was like, you know, it's the equivalent of, like, Barbie where there's a Ken. And then there's the Poindexter. Mystery date The guy that was considered the dud...

So there's like a few different guys, so you can get you can get like the guy that's like the beach dude. And he's got his beach blanket ready and he's got his flip flops and his ah, you know, umbrella over his shoulder. And he's like the guy that's a good choice. And then there's the nerd and he's actually got a pocket protector. And he's carrying a school book and then the dud. That's like supposed to be the one you really, really, really don't want to get. Is wearing like cargoes, like up to his belly button and like an open white V neck shirt. And you just kind of looks like... Okay, here's the thing. He's wearing like work boots, and he looks kind of dirty. And so it's like this is a manual laborer. I feel like it's like a working class guy, like they're like, this is a manual laborer. You do not want to date this person.

Kate:                I'm not even gonna bother with a segway. We're switching topics. That's enough of that. Oh, uh, so the other day, I don't think we were recording. I think it was something you typed at me in. You said, you are going to be so embarrassed when you hear yourself on this podcast cause you released the first podcast of us co hosting. You said I did not edit you because we've talked before about how you'll sometimes edit out the ums, the ohs, the pauses, which you call the filler. I asked you, Are you gonna edit out my filler? Because I know I have a tendency too make a lot of extra like words like that. Like I play like I am a demented Barbie doll from a game from the fifties. 

Mindy:             You're a valley girl.

Kate:                Yes, I am the Buffalo Valley girl. And, um So you said you just didn't. Like it defeated you. Is that what happened? Or you Just didn't even try because you realised that part of my charm?

Mindy:             Well, it wasn't that so much. No, What it was was that you use it like almost as an inhale. So when I'm editing it, I cannot pull them out without clipping the words surrounding him. Because you just insert it like breathing. So I wasn't able to. For one thing it would have taken at me, I don't even know how many hours to pull all of your likes out. But for the second, it wouldn't have even sounded right because your cadence would have been messed up. And I was like, Number one. It's not worth it. Number two. It won't sound right. Number three. Perhaps it's part of your charm. I don't know. That's up to the audience to decide.

Kate:                Part of my charm? Yes, I think that's really all I just heard of everything you said. 

Mindy:             Okay, that's fair. Selective audio. I'm used to you. We talk all the time. I know what you sound like. I would be surprised if suddenly you lost filler. I didn't even realize how bad it was until I pulled up the transcript.

Kate:                When Another Little Piece, which is my first book, came out the local newspaper, the Buffalo News, which is a big deal around here. They're like a like a big newspaper. The woman who does the reviews for Children's books, They always have a little section at the bottom of the Sunday paper with a couple Children's books reviews. So they reviewed Another Little Piece. And then she called me and she said, Would you be willing, you know, to do an interview? She emailed me and I was like, Oh, my gosh, of course, Yes, on. And so she called me on the phone and I was really nervous to the point where I was talking too fast and I was like, feeling short of breath. I didn't realize it, but I was also saying like a ton. And so she wrote this article and she put quotes from me in. And my quotes made me sound like an idiot.

You know would be like Quinn said, “Oh, like you know the YA market is just amazing And there are so many readers and that’s just like the most cool thing.” So my mom, they've always gotten the paper. They get it every single day. They're like the people who, if it's not on the front porch, When my dad goes out to get it, he's calling and saying, Where's my newspaper? Um and so my mom said, “Katie, there was an article about you in the paper today,” and I said, I know Mom, I did an interview. And she said, “Your father was so surprised. He took the paper into the bathroom and suddenly I hear him shouting out me. Really? He's saying, “Katie’s in the paper! She’s in the paper!” And so my mom says, “You know, you you gotta try when you're talking to not say like so much.” 

Mindy:             I'm looking at the transcript. The trains are from our first, our first published episode, which came out June 1st. And it was with—

Kate:                Which listeners should know You can read the transcript if you don't have time to listen read. The transfer of our Midwestern accents are just such a turn off that you would rather read than listen. 

Mindy:             I pulled up the transcript and I ran like, you know, a search on it for the word like, and it has 313 incidents. 

Kate:                Those aren’t all mine. 

Mindy:             Quite a few are mine. However, I did find a line here that I wanted to read to you. So here's a line from Kate from the June 1st episode regarding dog menstruation. “But I would say as recently as 50 years ago, like Like every if you had a female dog like you just went without, like, nobody really got your dogs neutered or spayed.” What you actually said here was, “as recently as 50 years ago, nobody really got their dogs neutered or spayed.” But you have to embellish. You know, it's interesting, though.

So my sister's filler, she does use, like because you said I do believe it's a generational thing to a certain extent, but she actually says blah, blah, blah. She does. She uses it so often that you notice it. It's just like in a regular conversation. She'll be like So you know, I cleaned the kitchen and then I was working on something else and blah, blah, blah. And then the phone rang and it was Mom and Mom wanted to tell me all about how dad got his finger crushed by the tractor and blah, blah, blah. And then I had to go into town. And, of course, they didn't have my prescription ready because blah, blah, blah. That's just what does, she said, his blah, blah, blah like, all the time.

And once you notice it, it is egregious. You know how you find yourself when you're having a conversation with, like a British person or someone with an Irish accent, which we have—

We have David Gaughran coming up, because he has an Irish accent. And sometimes when you're having conversations over a long period of time with someone that has an accent, you kind of start like mimicking them a little bit or picking up on certain words. If you're with my sister for more than 15 minutes, you will start saying blah, blah, blah. 

Kate:                Yes, if I'm down south. I start to drawl. If there is some slang that everyone around me is using, I can't help but pick it up. 

Mindy:             You know, it's funny. I'm the opposite. I just, like, really dig my heels in. So— 

Kate:                I know you are stubborn is hell.

Mindy:             I know. If I end up in like New York City. Or, you know, Chicago or somewhere like that where people are talking to me about, you know, my books and who I am and where I'm from. I actually kind of lean into my Midwestern a little harder. Yeah, uh I have caught myself doing it before. It's like I will be a little more. Yeah, it's kind of funny. I don't know why I do it. I mean, it's not on purpose, but when I'm around, um, I guess city people for lack of a better word, I kind of just like, lean into it.

Kate:                I remember the first time we were in Chicago, and you were like, This is a big city. This is kind of freaking me out. You're like, it's so big, and I just I don't feel comfortable here. You're like, it's just too much. So maybe it's like that feeling of like, I don't belong here. I'm going to prove it. I'm going to show you all. 

Mindy:             I will create home with my voice. Yeah. I've gotten better about cities, though, um, I mean, that was probably one of my very first times in a major city, like as an adult, maybe only one twice as the child. So I can even enjoy cities now, but yeah, it's it's not easy. I mean, I got to be with you or was, well, also, you know, things have changed. You can just pull up a Google map and figure out where you are and where you want to be. Pretty easily so. 15 years ago, I wouldn't have had that. That feeling of safety, 

Kate:                I’m impressed by people who travel alone.

Mindy:             I travel alone a lot. 

Kate:                For business, but for, like, pleasure? 

Mindy:             Oh, no. No, I wouldn't. Well, I don't know. I might I can't imagine it being a lot of fun. 

Kate:                Yeah, I'm not a do things by myself. Person. Do you go to the movies about yourself? 

Mindy:             No. 

Kate:                I don't either. Do you ever go to dinner by yourself? 

Mindy:             Yes, like in a hotel restaurant. So, yeah, if I fly into, like, a Con or something. And if you guys aren't there yet, if I don't know anybody. I'm hungry. It's like I'll go eat in the restaurant by myself and take my laptop. I'm never alone because I have my laptop.

Kate:                Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

Mindy:             I text you guys, and be like hey Kate, Demitria, I'm sitting here, You know, in this restaurant, you're kind of with me in spirit.

Kate:                Yeah. Yeah, that's true, but yeah, I would rather just go to the hotel and, like, have pizza brought up or something and to sit by myself, which is wrong. We're supposed to be strong women and go out and not need other people. But I don't go. 

Mindy:             I go down to the weight room or the workout room at the hotels and I work out and do all the things I said I was gonna do. 

Kate:                That's impressive. No one works out when they're on vacation. I did once one time, cause I was so stressed out. It was when I was with you guys and I was like, my anxiety was flaring horribly and I couldn't sleep. And so I went to work out. 

Mindy:             Yeah, I work out. Um, I really actually have kicked it up since quarantine because I had to have a schedule had to have something. And so when quarantine started, it was like, I'm gonna really come down myself. I'm gonna run every morning and I'm gonna lift every night. And so I did. And I did it all through quarantine. Quarantine has been lifted here in Ohio. My gym is open again, and I used to just go to the gym twice a week. And now it's four. I run every morning, regardless. And I lift Monday through Thursday like CrossFit. 

Kate:                Wow, that's really impressive. I was starting to lift before the gym's closed. My husband talked about doing it. Remember me complaining about how heavy the weights were and that they hurt my hands?

Mindy:             Yes. And I tried to tell you that you were using a men's bar instead of a womens bar, and that that made a huge difference? 

Kate:                Yes, yes. There's when my husband was just setting me up and having me do it. But it hurts your hand so much like you were like, Oh, you're just gonna have to have blisters and stuff. And I was like, you know... 

Mindy:             Callouses. Yeah, you have to go. I’ve got calluses. I’ve got weight lifting callouses.

Kate:                I don't want them, but I was gonna push through, and I actually I had a pair of, like, weight lifting gloves and my Amazon cart that I was about to purchase, like, right before this all happened. And then, of course, this happened in the gym Shut down in our gyms Haven't opened up. So I mean, if the quarantine hadn't happened like I probably would have been like on the women's bodybuilding circuit by September, I think, Yeah, I thought it was a shame. Like the opportunities that were lost. Like I always wear my Fitbit. But now I'm actually like paying attention to it. And I'm like, Oops, I've been sitting on my ass all day today.

Mindy:             As soon as I wake up, I get out of bed and I run. You know, it's a new development for me, and I really like it because it just forces everything to get going. Well, we better bring Rob on so he can talk to us about Pictionary. 

Mindy:             So why don't you tell us a little bit about how the idea for Pictionary even happened for you and then talk a little bit about that process of having it turned into an actual board game that you can purchase in a store. Because I've heard from people that move in those circles, that it’s a lot like publishing in that it can be very difficult to make that leap into that traditional board game industry. 

Rob:                 It was tough back in 1982 when I was a waiter, 23 old waiter, and I decided to work on Pictionary. My roommate said, Hey, you guys want to play this game called charades on paper? Being 23 of course. Let's play a game. We stayed up all night, sketching words to each other. And then the next night and the next night. And so it just became this late night activity, and after several answers, said, You know, this may make a really good board game, and that was kind of the genesis that got me started thinking about it. 

Rob:                 Then I over thought it. I got inside my head and I started looking at the big picture, and I could visualize Pictionary on store shelves. But marketing plans and business plans and financing just all became too much for me and I shut down. So I had to pause. I had to stop thinking about it, but it never left my brain. 

And then one day I see this Trivial Pursuit card. Oh, the problem I have was putting words into the game. I see the words printed on a card, and that's my ah ha moment. Went to the backyard with a dictionary a paper and pencil. And I didn't over think that cause everything was right there in my house. The first word I saw that made sense was aardvark. 

Kate:                That was the first word

Rob:                 That was the first word. That's how it all got started because I had taken that first step, the first easiest step. Let's be honest. And but the beauty and the transformation, if you will, was after I wrote that word down. My mindset went from I was a waiter, to I was a game inventor. That was the switch, and it was just fun writing down the simple word. I still didn't have a plan. I knew what I was going to do next. I didn't, I couldn't predict the future, but I got started, and that's where the whole thing in my brain, uh, kept going because now in the game inventor and game inventors invent games.

 Kate:                That's really interesting because with writing a lot, you know, writers will spend years working on books and not being published and submitting and submitting, and they don't feel like they can call themselves a writer because they're not published. But if you are doing it, you kind of call yourself a writer. Or you can call yourself, you know, ah, game inventor, because you are you're doing it and you're taking the steps even if, um, you know, nobody else has recognized it or it's not in the stores. 

Rob:                 Yeah, it is actually true in anything. It's not just writing or game inventing. If we keep putting labels on ourselves, then we'll never move forward. Anything. To write a book is gonna take two years or whatever, and then the game is going to take eight months. Whatever. We'll never get started. So it's just a just a label that we can put on ourselves. And if you're a writer and written one word to me, you're a writer. 

Mindy:             I think it's interesting too, you said that you got too much inside of your own head. You had this idea. You were excited about it. And then when you started actually working with it and you saw the huge scheme of work that was ahead of you, the marketing in the planning, the promotional, everything that you have to have in order to even approach the traditional business. It is so intimidating. And it's not the reason why you got started. That's what it's like for writing as well. There are so many similarities.

Before I was published, it would be like I have an idea and it's sharp and shiny and new, and everything about it is glittery and it's a unicorn. And I'm so excited. And then I start looking at the process of getting published, and I'm just like, Oh, God, I don't want to do that. I don't want to go through that. Obviously, I did. I pushed myself. I made it happen. But it really kind of does once that that, uh, dirty fingerprint of commerce goes on to your dream. It does transform it.

Rob:                 The dirty fingerprint of commerce... 

Mindy:             I’m a writer. 

Rob:                 We all have ideas. Uh, great ideas as we're getting out of the shower. We have what we got to do is just keep plugging through on them. And as you say, you the dirty fingerprint of commerce, whatever it turns into is OK, we've got to just plug through. But the other thing is when we know that it's time to turn around and go different direction. That's okay too.

Kate:                So what happened after aardvark? What was the next step that you took? I assume you got through the dictionary. 

Rob:                 I got through the dictionary and then I just had to figure out if the game was any fun. It was a lot of fun. My roommates... but I got the feeling drinking beer was the cause of that problem.

Kate:                That does skew the results. 

Mindy:              Yes, writers understand that, too. 

Rob:                 I know my strong suits and my weaknesses and running a business is not one of my strong suits. So I got business partner who could do that. And I've got a graphic artist partner who could take care of that, and I did marketing and sales. And that was the first really big step after finding out that the product would work or the game itself work. I still didn't have a product, and then we had a rather simplistic business model. It was make games. Sell games You know, I'm 23 24. I don't know what I'm doing. Everything is intuition. Everything is by instinct. Let's make some games.

Kate:                And that this is, like way before Kickstarter. So, like, what was your like Now you know you would, you know, you kick started and, you know, offer this game. But how did you decide to market it and get it out there and create the games? Like, were you going to like Jo Ann Fabrics and like cutting cardboard?

Rob:                 Oh, yeah. And the Kickstarter phenomenon. I'm jealous and not jealous. At the same time, I would be just click and point and create a prototype. We didn't have that option. So I literally went in the phone book, that big yellow thing, and I knew we needed boxes. So I looked at boxes and then I knew we needed pencils and die cubes, and I found nine different companies to supply parts of they were all shipped to my apartment. 

Kate:                The phone book. I feel like we should, like, translate this for the younger listeners. Like, yeah, Like, Wait. But why didn't you just go on the Internet and Google it and go on Amazon for those things?

Mindy:             And so just so everyone is aware, there was a point in time where you got something every year called the phone book, and it had everybody's phone number in it, which now is just like people. I mean, it's like an invasion of privacy, right? Cause it had your address printed in it too, huh? 

Rob:                 It's everybody in your city instead of being online, was printed and sent to you. Yes, every business printed and sent it.

Kate:                I still remember, with a friend going through the phone book and print calling everyone with the last name Weiner and to the Weiner’s of the world. I'm sorry. It was wrong.

Mindy:             I remember going through the phone book and finding like our teachers phone numbers and pranking our teachers. 

Kate:                Oh my gosh. I would never have done that. That's mean.

Mindy:             Well, I never told you I was nice. 

Rob:                 Well, we were young.

Kate:                How many like prototypes did you create?

Rob:                 We did 1000 games that we put together My apartment. 

Mindy:             Holy crap. How many people were helping you with this?

Rob:                 My two partners, a couple of friends, and we literally hand assembled each of those games at my first house. It's I mean, every card, every block, everything. Our fingerprints on it. 

Mindy:             How hard is it to get one of those original games? 

Rob:                 They're out there, but most of them have my signature or their scrolled up. So I have squirreled away probably about seven or eight of the original 1000 out of the 38 million.

Kate:                That's got to be a major collector's item, cause that it's such a cool thing. 

Rob:                 There were cool. Make sure you get one. If it has a sticker on the box and the plastic, it's not original right there out there that we did that probably about your four when Win, Lose or Draw came out. Yes, and they ripped us... Yeah, they ripped us off.

Mindy:             They did. Because its the same thing. They just have really big markers.

Rob:                 Exactly. And so we put a big sticker on the box. Is said Original Charades on paper Game. We were the first, the biggest and the best. 

Kate:                When you were in your apartment with your friends and you were making these 1st 1000 were you like, this is gonna be huge. This is gonna be amazing. Like, could you feel like this is gonna be something? 

Rob:                 No.

Kate:                Were you at least telling yourself? Like whenever I'm writing a book, I'm like, Oprah's gonna love this one. Like, I tell myself that even though Oprah has not called yet Oprah, I'm waiting here. 

Rob:                 I'll give her a call for you. 

Kate:                I would love if she could just give one of my books a shout out. But you know, I feel like you kind of have to, like, have a little bit of pie in the sky Dreams to like, assemble 1000 games by hand.

Rob:                 We assumed and hoped that we would sell a lot but our minds wouldn't let us go there because we would make decisions based on that versus we've got 1000 games to sell. How do we do this? And then if we keep true, our vision and what we're thinking of, what we want to do, the money will come. The sales. But our focus was squarely on those 1st 1000 games. Um, and we put one foot in front of the other instincts, drove everything. There's no, was no Internet, right, Right?

Kate:                So how did you sell him? Was it like, back of the car, like out? It's selling out of your trunk or like going store to store and getting them to put a couple on the counter? 

Rob:                 Yeah. I mean, one of our biggest tools was demonstrations, so I would stand at the bottom of the escalator downtown, Nordstrom in Seattle, pen and paper in hand. Go Hey, play my game and stand there for literally 12 hours a day and sell three games and I'd be excited.

Mindy:             That’s familiar to writers to because we do, it's called table selling, so you'll be like at a festival or something like that. But the difference, though, is that people are coming to a book festival. The people that are showing up to events are there because they want to buy books. You're literally just like accosting people in Nordstrom's.

Kate:                That’s hard to do. 

Rob:                 It was. But it was, you know, I was 24 by now. 25. it was my mission. Yeah, there was. There was plenty of days. I mean, that I wanted to quit. I mean, how many? You've done something in your you're doing your 14th demonstration or your you were doing your 15th book tour, or whatever your Oh, my goodness. But it was just that that feeling that Pictionary was cool. Pictionary was special, was just a part of my life. And so that got me through those days.

Mindy:             How much did it sell for?

Rob:                 $30 retail. And that was when a movie was $2.85.

Mindy:              Wow.

Kate:                Were people saying like, Oh, this is too pricey. Like, did you price some customers out? Or was that like, what was what were other board games going for?

Rob:                 Our competition was Trivial Pursuit. They were selling for 30 bucks, so we decided sell them for 30 bucks. We lost $7 a game.

Kate:                Because you couldn't mass produce? 

Rob:                 We couldn’t mass produce. We had to assume where we produced in quantity, that price would come round. But we knew he had to be competitive. We knew the market was, and so we just priced accordingly and lost seven bucks and cross your fingers. Yeah.

Kate:                So how did you come up from the beginning? It was called Pictionary. How did you come up with that name? At what point did you figure that out? When 

Rob:                 We were playing with my roommates, We were using a dictionary to get the words. And one day one of the roommates started playing this game called Fictionary, which is now Balderdash. 

Mindy:             I love that game. 

Rob:                 Laura Robinson's become a good friend of mine. It's a very small community. So he just started playing this game. What are you doing? It's called Fictionary. Kind of. This light bulb goes off and he said, Well, pictures, pictures called Pictionary that was it? Wow, that was pretty quick. But I want to say I want to make one thing go back those games, those 1000 games. I equate them to a book in that I touched every one of those pieces to every one of those 1000 games. It's like a writer. Every word you put on that paper's yours. You're messed with every word. And sometimes it's hard to let those go. And sometimes it's, you know, is it the right word? Was that the right card? And so there's a lot of parallels in putting that out.

Kate:                Absolutely so many parallels. Yeah, and I think also just that. The difficulty, you know, like I think a lot of people, they see the success and they don't you know, see the day after day of having to go and, you know, put the game together and then having to sell them like that's the part that you know in the story of success gets two sentences. But in the living, it is really, really difficult. That's that's the quitting point.

Rob:                 I couldn't agree more. I mean, people just see Pictionary as a success, but they don't see the 16 hours at the bottom of the escalator, and it didn't see that I would walk literally, in the street with the game under my arm and then walk into any store front. I mean, I didn't know the rules, right? I didn't know you couldn't sell to, not toy stores and Toys R Us. So I go into a real estate company, sold them six games. I went into a pharmacy, knickknacks, doors, department stores. I didn't care. I was just getting people to see Pictionary in places that normally wouldn't do it. 

Mindy:             Did you have to have, like, permission from Nordstrom's to be there to be like a vendor?

Rob:                 Oh my. Yes. Yeah, they The first sales call to them did not go well. I go in and here I am, you know, game under my arm. And say I have got this great game. You should play some. We sell shoes and handbags and dresses, right? Oh, gosh. So I said, Well, Pictionary is fun, and your clients will really like—No, Rob. Sorry. Well, by now I'm starting to think this is a big deal. This is a big sale for me, Not just numbers, but I need this account. I was offering her everything and anything, including I would do demonstrations at the bottom of the escalator and sell the games myself. That got her attention. And that's what turned the tide. She took 12 games for six stores. 72 games. I mean, I remember the little numbers. Yeah. Wow. Very very. And that's how that all came out. But I was willing to do anything for the sale. Have you ever had that? That feeling where, you know, you just have to accomplish this task to have to get this goal. Yeah. Yeah. One of those.

Kate:                What was the what was the next big step in the journey? 

Rob:                 Lot of slogging it out. A lot of, you know, demonstrations. And we'd go to the the restaurants and open up the game to start playing. What are you playing? Pictionary! Um, but the next step, we became pretty popular pretty quickly. So this is 1985 and beginning 86 all the major game companies heard about us, and we basically we sold 8600 games and we became too big for ourselves. We couldn't fund our growth. right way had the license. And that means basically, somebody takes on the job and the cost of manufacturing, distribution, marketing and sales. Pay us money for that right, we get a deal or get an appointment with Milton Bradley. Biggest game company in the world. Huge They hold the market that 80% of the market I'm 20. I'm 26 years old. I mean... 

Kate:                Where were their offices?  So did they fly you out there? Oh, 

Rob:                 No. My partner flew. Coach. Stayed in a fleabag motel because that's all we could afford.

Kate:                No, those cheapskates. I think should have flown you out there. 

Rob:                 At this point, I think we needed them more than they needed us. And so we Finally, we come to a deal at 26, $500 a month and I'm driving a 10 year old car. Yeah. Yeah. And so they gave us the deal. Biggest royalty that ever given any independent game company ever. Everything we wanted. Except they wouldn't put in writing that they wouldn't touch the packaging without a written approval. Our whole vision, which was very, very simple, was based on picture because we knew everything would flow from that. You can't touch Pictionary. Nobody can touch Pictionary, but us. They didn't share that vision way. Didn't trust that. I said no to the contract. I was ready to risk going back to waiting tables and give up on my vision. It was so important that, um what a sudden Senate calls it your just cause really does sacrifice everything. Your vision. And I was willing to do that. We had no Plan B, my partners and I And okay, let's be honest. There was, ah, day of what the heck of? 

Kate:                Was it a split vote or was it, you are all in agreement because I could see that being like a heated argument of, um, you weren't all on the same side.

Rob:                 You know, it's one of those odd things that we look back, that all three of us felt the same way because his partners, we all had different skill sets. That's okay. You just you combined those. But we shared the same vision and we shared the same values. Yeah, it wasn't about business. We connected his people as humans, and that's what drove the business. That's what drove us always moving forward. And because of that, when that decision came down, we were in complete agreement.

Kate:                Really? I feel like such great, you know, advice for anyone in any field, you know, working with others and partnerships. And, you know, I've done co writing and yeah, I think you're right. It Yes, you have to share that vision. And I know that you're coming from the same place.

Mindy:             I know a lot of people that ah want to be published. They wanna have their, you know, their words in print and are willing to kind of take whatever leap is necessary, which is good. But sometimes they're going to go for something smaller than what they're worth. Like they don't recognize their own worth, so they won't necessarily. And I'm not saying everybody should wait until, you know, one of the big Four publishers picks you up. If there is something that just sticks in your craw, like you were saying, you're like No, I really feel like I'm selling my soul If I do this, it's a calculated risk, I guess. 

Rob:                 Oh yeah. Every everything is a calculated risk. You have to take action. And sometimes you owe, uh, that if you can't find a publisher, you can't find somebody to since your game, it just have to do it. Otherwise you'll be stuck. And your product, your game, your your book, whatever will be stuck. So at some point, you've just got to jump. 

Mindy:             I mean, and that's something that I tell people. A lot of people writers will be scared to put themselves out there scared to put the book out there or get feedback from someone Or, you know, even send a round of queries to try to get an agent. And it's like it is scary. If it's worth doing, then it's worth throwing yourself into it.

Rob:                 I completely agree. My book process, I was absolutely scared. I'll just be honest with you. 

Kate:                The blank page. Did you write aardvark again? 

Rob:                 Of course. I mean, seriously, you gotta write, start writing somehow. Euphemistically right? Aardvark is a state of mind. Yeah, it's not really writing down that one simple word, but it's a mind step so you could pull that first step, which I did, and I celebrated that victory, but I still didn't have a plan. So aardvark is more of an emotional decision to keep moving forward. Aardvark is taking the first step without knowing what the 2nd 3rd and fourth step is gonna be without waiting to, Have all the pieces in place before you get going, whether it's a book or a game or a business, whatever. And I really, truly believe this that we can get ourselves unstuck by taking those little steps. I mean, it's you can say it any way you want the whole world with books about finding your aardvark by taking first step, taking your small step. But you know, for me, maybe for people, finding your aardvark will resonate because you've got to do it where it's just that idea, rattling around in your head and don't worry about where it leads if you do that for me, that was tough. One foot in front of the other until look what I've got about this game. It's magnificent.

Mindy:             So you turned down Milton Bradley. 

Kate:                Did you actually have to call them and say like, now we're gonna pass. For some reason, I'm envisioning Milton Bradley as the actual monopoly man and being like, What are you talking about? 

Rob:                 Oh my goodness. Personal story. This is one of the biggest moments. My partners. I remember. I've never I've never told this story on air anywhere, that we go back and forth and they gave us everything we wanted and were on one of those old speaker phones. Three of us are there. And we said, You know, guys, we need those guarantees about the packaging. Quiet for a minute. All of a sudden, from the other end of the phone, we hear, we're Milton Bradley. You're gonna have to trust us on. My partner says, the only people I trust or the three guys in this room. Click. We Hung up.

Kate:                That's ballsy. 

Rob:                 We looked at each other with complete horror and shock, but we do. It was the right decision, But yeah, it was It was the biggest decision we ever made. 

Kate:                That's huge. Although I have to say any time anyone ever says you're gonna have to trust me. It's like, Oh, no. I never say that. Did you scream? Did anyone scream? Where you giggling, like, hysterically, Or was it just like silence after the hang up?

Rob:                 It was dead. Silence. Say we just may be screwed ourselves. And so it wasn't like we made the right decision. It was like sweat. And I'm hyperventilating. Yeah, it was It was hard, right? Decision, but hard. Yeah, it was. It was a tough couple of days. Oh, gosh. Yeah, that would be some sleepless nights and definitely a trip to the bar. 

Kate:                Or maybe several.

Rob                  On. We just never left. The beauty was the universe provides, and things happen for a reason how they're supposed to. Three weeks later, we get a call. There was a joint venture, they wanted to license Pictionary. And it was all the people who could make it all happen. And they gave us all our guarantees and a bigger royalty rate. So, by holding out for what we knew was right for us in the product. We got a better deal and we went from 6, 8 thousand games out of my apartment, literally. The 350,000 games when we license them to three million games. And by your four in the US alone, we did 11 million games. Three more Europe with the biggest game of the world. 

Kate:                By the time you got to 11 million games how old were you? 

Rob:                 31 by now. 30.

Kate:                Oh, my gosh. You are a little whipper snapper with all that those games! And were you, like, What do I do now? 

Rob:                 I was fortunately, had some good mentors that helped me navigate that. It's not easy to navigate. Failure could well planned for plan B. These were planning for failure, but I had to figure out how to plan for my success because I was woefully unprepared. Yeah, I went from $500 a month, three years later, A millionaire. I mean, yeah, no idea what to do.

Mindy:             I don't think I would have been able to handle that at 31. Honestly, I would have been, like, so irresponsible. 

Kate:                I mean, even, you know, authors will get, you know, a first big deal and you know, Mindy and I were actually, um, two days apart in age. Both turned 41 in March, and we both, um we're in our early thirties when we got our first publishing deal. But, um, you know, we know some like people who were in their early twenties and they got huge deals and you know, all the attention and stuff. It really messed with their heads. And I always said, like, I'm glad I wasn't that young cause it's it's hard enough to get through your twenties and you know, to have all that thrown at you, when you're trying to figure out who you are is really difficult. And it's also just hard in publishing, you know, Everyone focuses on the first step in getting over that first hurdle and then what? You're published. It's like, What do I do next? How to not just started a career but sustain it? Yeah, and that's like no one really talks about that part as much. 

Rob:                 I think you've nailed it completely. Sustained. How do you sustain? How do you sustain your lifestyle? Sustain long term what it is you want out of life? What’s your vision? That's what sustained me. I mean, have you ever seen yourself 10 20 years in the future Knows that check comes in. Well, maybe that's not exactly what I wanted. Mm. But you gotta stick true to that. That's a little It gets a little difficult to navigate, but you have to stay the course of what is important to you and what you visualize for yourself. And that helps.

Mindy:             You have a book coming out now this month called Game Changer. The Story of Pictionary. And so what made you decide here? How many years after the creation of the game itself to write like a memoir, this non fiction about the creation of Pictionary? What was that instigating moment for the book?

Rob:                 The original intent, honestly, was to write down what my Children's father did because they only know the aftermath. Yeah, so I started writing the book. Just here's what I did, so they would appreciate. Well, that was early on the process. And then as I started writing, I'm realizing this is a pretty good story. I didn't live it until I started writing it down, and I remember this now. Remember this and I wanted to start sharing that story with people, and that's what kept me going. And it turned into a great book, if you will. But it's just a really good story and wanted to share that inspiration with everybody else. I mean, I was a 23 year old waiter, and I dared at some point to dream to take on the big game companies. And the book is just that journey and the obstacles good and bad and personal business and overcame to get there. And it was just a fascinating process to write this thing.

Mindy:             I'm looking at the cover right now. I have to ask, Is that an aardvark being drawn?

Rob:                 Yes, it is. I thought it was. 

Rob:                 Aardvark has played a big, big role. Not just Pictionary, of my whole life. So I thought I pay homage to, uh to the art of aardvark.

Kate:                And so what? Do you have your kids read the book? Are they old enough? 

Rob:                 Oh, yeah. They’re 24, 26 and one of the real benefits, if you will, to writing this. So I was sharing the story with them as I was writing it. You know, when you're doing something that's resonating, you know you have that feeling and that gut tells you this visceral reaction. Oh, my goodness. This is going well and this is working. So when my daughter was reading the book, I decided to have her help me edit it. She got involved, and now she really understands. So my original purpose for the book has been realized. That was a pretty bring powerful moment for me.

Mindy:             Kate, You're going to write a memoir for your kids, about how you have ah, degree in film and a master's in film and then another Masters in What are your Masters and again creative writing and film? 

Kate:                Film and Theatre. Very useful degrees.

Rob:                 They got you where you are now. 

Kate:                That’s right. Absolutely. And my Children are actually very impressed that, um I am talking to you today because they are huge game lovers, especially my oldest son. He he loves playing games, and we do have Pictionary. We've actually been playing a lot of Pictionary with, um like kind of Ah, do it yourself version over Zoom cause there's that drawing you can draw on the aboard. You where you can draw the screen. And so we did that, um, with my family, actually on Easter, which is, like five different households. And we had explained to my mom how to play like three times, but then she got it. But we all told her like, this is Pictionary. No one called it Win, Lose or Draw. My kids don't even know what that is.

Rob:                 right. I Appreciate that. 

Mindy:             When Win, Lose, or Draw happened. Were you just like what? Hey!

Rob:                 They came out 19 actually 1986. And they launched 87. And we already sold three million games. First reaction is, of course, They ripped us off, but it was really one of the few times I really thought we were gonna fail. Yeah, it was this onslaught of this competition well funded half hour TV show Celebrity Power, And I panicked. I was like, we've got to do something. What could we do? And we're gonna loses this battle of drawing games. Uh, and it was It was a rough several months while they were on air until the numbers started coming out that we had succeeded in keeping our number one position. But there was that moment of Okay, is this gonna all crater on me? 

Kate:                I can see if Your numbers actually went up like I could see someone actually going to the storm being like, Oh, yeah, I want to play a drawing game and then being like, oh, Pictionary. 

Rob:                 We didn't realize it at the time, but it turned into a commercial for Pictionary because we were the first and when people exactly would go to the store, they thought it was Pictionary, so they would just buy Pictionary. So that was a nice little bonus. 

Mindy:             I think too, what's interesting to me as an author, because I do see this happen often. You have an idea, and you think Oh, my gosh, this is so original. I've never heard of anything like this. My idea is super cool, and nobody's ever done this before. And then I'll be browsing in a bookstore and I pick up a book that is basically my book and it just came out and you know someone I don't know and we have never spoken had basically the same idea, and it happens quite a bit. I have a friend who had written a really good, um, count of Monte Cristo retelling gender flipped, set in space. And it was awesome. And about two or three months after I had or no weeks, weeks after I had read her first version of this, I see a sale in Publishers Weekly, which is where they do the weekly sales. The deals have been made, and it was for a gender flipped version of Count of Monte Cristo set in, and I don't think it's in space. But it was like in a fantasy world. 

It is interesting how rare those Black Swan ideas can be. Um, I feel like we're all kind of pulling out of the same creative cloud. At some point, I read a great book. It was about human evolution. I have not been reading. Much like ironically, quarantine has taken away my reading time. Okay, here we go. It's called Transcendence: How Humans Evolved through Fire, Language, Beauty and Time. It's by an Italian woman named Gaia Vince, and there was a quote in there. She was talking about story and the importance of story and the importance of storyteller and culture and how it’s evolved over time. And there was a wonderful quote from I believe it was like a Greek poet 500 BC, and he was like, I'm going to stop writing because it's become clear to me that there are no new stories and everything's already been covered. And I'm like, Dude, that was like, 500 BC. So people kept going, you know? But it's interesting to me that, like even that long ago, one creator was just like, Yeah, there's nothing truly new in the world. We're all just telling the same things. 

Rob:                 We are. But isn't that the beauty of art? Because you could take the same theme 1000 times, takes that same thing and does it differently, and based on the writers Proclivities or the inventor. So yeah, there It doesn't matter, because if you go with that attitude or that idea, you'll never get started, right? 

Mindy:             You'll never do anything. No, I agree completely.

Rob:                 The Black Swan. You can't plan for that. I mean, I might Goodness, we couldn't plan for that. For Pictionary, er or Twilight or whatever. Yeah, but it's It's just a matter of going. Okay, This is my motivation. I'm gonna do it. You see what happens? You can. Yeah, I can. You can't get too caught up in that, which I have. Of course. I'm telling you what to do. Not what I do, right? Of course, it's easier to do that. Yeah, just to throw caution to the wind, See if it resonates.

Kate:                And I think you know also, I think the beauty of Pictionary is it's It's one of those ideas that's so simple. You know, you don't have to read three pages of directions to start playing the game, right? It's It's so, it's just so clean and so beautiful and so simple. And it works. And you didn't feel the need to make it. You know, at a lot of extra bells and whistles to make it, you know, spinners or whatever. And that's so great. Especially, you know, playing games with my kids. We’ll, you know, open up a new game and then an hour later we'll try and play it after we, you know, waded through the directions and figured it out.

Rob:     It was kind of like our first business model. Make games, sell games. Yeah, draw words. Guess words. We keep it dead simple that anybody could play. But I think the hallmark of like people still play Pictionary. Isn't the drawing, isn’t the guessing it's that it's an emotion? it's like going to a rock concert where something Mick Jagger's onstage everybody's in. This same vibe is still doing this same thing when you're sketching and guessing and you're having fun and your senses are alive, you remember those shared collaborations moments. That's what brings people again and keeps them together, going back again and again. You don’t remember this really great Trivial Pursuit question. That's why it's resonated so much. 

Mindy:             I do have to counter you don't remember those great Trivial Pursuit questions because there is one that my group of college friends because we played Pictionary, because I'm sorry we played Trivial Pursuit and Pictionary because we were just like big big nerds, and that's what we did. And so we were playing Trivial pursuit and it was a game that’s been going on, like all week as we stuck very, you know, soundly to the rules. And somebody had all their pies and then made it to the center. And, you know, we were playing on teams and were trash talking each other and were being super difficult, and the winning question for in the middle with all your pies. Wa - What is the first book of the Bible? And we were all religion majors. Those of us that were on the other team were just like, flip the table. We're done. We're just like No! So there is, There is one memorable trivial pursuit question. 

Rob:                 What's the answer? 

Mindy:             Genesis

Kate:                That almost proves the point, though, because it is like the emotion of all of that, that made you remember that question? 

Rob:                 That's exactly right.

Kate:                I can see you seeing it. So specifically of like, the pie like you're painting the whole picture like it's so captured in your mind. 

Mindy:             I was pissed, like probably one of the most angriest times that I've ever been in my life. And I have been divorced like twice now, So yeah. Uh, well, a lot of emotion involved. 

Rob:                 I have a good person. You could talk to you that will release some of this anger. 

Mindy:             Oh, it gets released. Don't worry, it's all in my books. Kate, do you have any last questions? Or Rob, do you have anything you want to add that

Rob:                 The advice I give to people is Don't over think things. Everything is a process. Writing is a process of getting a game is a process, so there's no right or wrong way to do it. I mean, there's books, and if you do these three steps, you'll be successful. I don't think that's true, right? All your intuition Follow your instincts and just get going. And I know it sounds simple, but don't ever think that that step and I kind of liken it to a spider. What? He's making a web. He doesn't sit there, and you know, think today I'm gonna make a web that looks just like this. No, he just kind of jumps the wind, catches him and he lands somewhere. And then it goes back and he jumps again. And then he builds the web from there. It's all instinct. It's all intuition. He doesn't over think process. And so think of think of their process of building out Web building that spiderweb. That's that's the fun part of it, not knowing what it's all gonna be. And when the spider webs done or your book is down here, game is done. That's what it's supposed to be.

Kate:                I see a picture book in your future with the spider. 

Rob:                 Let me get through the 1st one please. I mean, it was a six year process, and as you said earlier, I wasn't ready to put it out a year ago. When I'm really proud of it now. And like I said, it just it just tells the story. If you love Pictionary, now you're gonna know how it all came to be. That's all. 

Kate:                That's awesome. And I could see it being a great book for people to pick up who are stuck in their houses and are maybe, you know, thinking this is a good time to, you know, make that dream come true for themselves, something that they've always wanted to do. So, um, it seems like it's like really one of those sort of inspirational reads.

Rob:                 You could break down all the lessons and things that I overcame, but really what it comes down to I was a 23 year old waiter had an idea. I went for it and it worked out. If I could do it, anybody could do it.