Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

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Mindy: We're here with Lisa Regan, author of the Josie Quinn series, which has, at this point in time, thirteen books in the series. I would love to talk to you about writing crime thrillers and writing in particular, A single character for 13 books so far. What is that like in terms of writing a character and having an arc for her over such a long time?

Lisa: First of all I just wanted to say thank you so much for having me. It's a thrill to be here. And I love your podcast, I'm really excited to be here. I think the only way you can do it over that number of books is to have the character kind of grow and change personally and professionally. So that's really what I tried to do with Josie. I try to throw something new at her every book and see how she reacts and see - does she regress to old negative behaviors? Does she grow and change from this? Is she trying to be a better person? And honestly when I started the series, it was a three book contract and I just assumed that after those three books, I would be done, I thought that the sales wouldn't be there and I would just be starting something new. So she's really got a pretty complete arc across those first three books. When the series became popular, I had to go back and think again about how do I make this character last? She needs to grow and change as a person a little bit in each book.

Mindy: And what about writing her - kind of surprisingly - for that long? Like you were saying, you started out with a three book series and then Have written an additional 10 after that. At any point are you kind of scrambling for ways to keep yourself interested? 

Lisa: Not really. I mean, I did worry about that. It’s just so fun to write Josie. And the cast of characters have become like old friends, like family members and I never get tired of being around them or writing them or throwing new stuff at them. While I've been writing this series, I've been asked to write a short story here or there, you know, to contribute to anthologies or something like that and I always feel like I'm cheating on Josie and it's just the worst feeling. And then I wrote a 5000 word short story for the anthology for Writers Police Academy last year and I had to go back through it and weed out all of the “Josie’s” that I had dropped in there by accident, even though no one had a J name in the entire story. 

Mindy: So you are habitually writing Josie even when you're not?

Lisa: Yes. Yes. It's very hard now to not be writing josie. It just doesn't, it feels wrong. 

Mindy: I think that's so interesting. I have never worked with a character for that long. In my own books, the longest series that I've ever done. I've done duologies, but I have never written a character over that long period of time. The most interesting thing as a writer that I've ever experienced was writing a character in the first book who was a teenager and then 10 years have passed in the second book. She is an adult. And so that was interesting for me as a writer to take that huge leap and imagine what this person would be like 10 years later. So how much time has passed over the course of thirteen Josie books? 

Lisa: I had to slow it down because when I realized that the series was going to be significantly longer than three books I thought I can't get too far ahead of myself. So the book one I think is loosely Based in 2015. And then I had book two take place 18 months later and then after that every six months. But I was still moving a little too fast. So now I only have about three or four months elapsing between each book because otherwise I think that six or 7 years has probably passed in the series world. But I have to try and think slowly or else you know Josie will be 60 years old and retiring on book 16 or something. 

Mindy: It's interesting. My sister is an English teacher. She teaches in high school. She has weird little peccadilloes with odd things. So like for example the Outlander series - which I love telling people I was reading those books in the 90s. 

Lisa: I was reading them before too, I think 1996. I read my first one. 

Mindy: Yeah that's actually when I read mine too and I was just enamored immediately. And I love those books and I pushed them on everyone that I knew and I pushed them on my sister and she read, I think the first like two or three and then she was out and I was like, why? I don't understand? She likes things to be believable. She likes things to make sense more or less. And she's like - you know, Claire keeps running into all these important historical figures in the past. And she's like - it's just not believable that she would cross paths with all these famous people. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I'm like…. but you're okay with time travel?

Whenever in my own books, when I'm writing, time configuration, pacing is also a consideration. So for example, in my own books, when I'm writing something that is going on, it's usually taking place over like max three months. I have a book coming out in February where the entire book takes place over two days and it's intense, like constant. Something is going on every minute. From my sister's perspective, Josie would probably have a heart attack if these things were happening, these crazy events were happening to her every three months. But that's the difference between worrying about realism versus what serves the story best. 

I do a lot of editorial work and it's something that I work with my clients on and they'll be like, well, yeah, but…. If we were talking about Josie for example, they would be. Like, her life couldn't be that crazy every three months. And I'm like, well, you're talking about reality, you have to take on the concept of pacing and this is fiction, you do have to give yourself some space. So what are your thoughts about that? 

Lisa: I think that it just comes down to entertainment, you know, readers want to be entertained and I just don't think it's realistic from an entertainment standpoint, to have this character aged 40 years from book 1-10. I mean, you're aging the character right out of the series. I just think that readers care less about that and more about just being entertained. And also, you know, I tried to write in the past, like police investigations in my books that go according to what would be an actual timeline, which sometimes these investigations take years. You're always waiting weeks and months and sometimes years for evidence analysis to come back and you know, every time the editor will say to me, you can't do that. He's not going to go for that. So that's a challenge. 

But you know, again, the readers want to be entertained. They want to skip the lulls that are in real life and they want to get right to the meat of things, right to the meat of the story. So, I think that's really important to look at your books from this perspective of -  is this going to be entertaining or not, regardless of how accurate it is? You know, Karin Slaughter is one of my favorite authors of all time. I've read her first thriller Blindsided at least 20 years ago. If you went by actual time, her main characters should be pretty much retired by now. The time periods in the books are just very still very, very short And I don't care. I never even thought, Oh Sara Linton should be like 50 by now. It never even crossed my mind because I just want to read the book and I want to be swept up and I want to be entertained and I love the characters.

Mindy: Exactly, that is the primary thought and the primary reasoning for the author. Myself, I have the experience of when I was writing my third book which is historical, It is set in a real town in Ohio and I have a serial killer and they have this group of people attempting to catch a serial killer using the 1890s, the very beginnings of criminal profiling. Which they did have then. But it was rough. It was coming down to this killer more than likely was in a particular profession. And because I am a stickler, I was looking at census data from that particular city From the year 1890 and all of a sudden my stomach just bottomed out. My heart almost stopped. This book that I had been working on feverishly to hit my deadline -- and there were only two people in that particular profession. And I'm like, oh my gosh, So basically it's 50/50 and it would be really easy to figure out who it was.

Lisa: Oh no.

Mindy: And I was so upset and I'm like, I have to restructure my whole book, I have to change the killer, I have to change the MO. And I walked downstairs and I was just like, visibly upset. My boyfriend at the time was like, what’s wrong, are you okay? And I was like, no. And I explained. And he was like, so this is fiction, right? And I'm like, yes. And he's like, just make the city bigger and put more people with that profession in it. And I was like, oh, right!! Yes, reality is important. But that entertainment value, like you said, you have to remember that you're writing fiction.

Lisa: Yes. And I find that readers will suspend their disbelief a lot more and for a lot more reasons than writers and editors really worry about. 

Mindy: Absolutely. I worked in a school for 14 years and I was recently listening to a book that was set in school and it's about the staff and drama with the staff. And a lot of the things that were going on as far as interaction with students were just, it wouldn't happen that way. Like staff and students texting each other and things like that, and I was just like, no, like, that wouldn't happen, that's not allowed. And I was getting a little bit upset because I was like, this person has never worked at a school. They don't know. And then I was like, but as a writer -  they had to do it this way in order for the plot to unfold. The average reader is who you have to keep in mind and the average reader does not know the behind the scenes workings of a school.

Lisa: Sure, and I do this too. As a reader, I just take it at face value that this author has done their research, or as much research as they are able to do, and that the choices that they have made are for plot reasons. Maybe that's because I'm also a writer, but just the way I see it. 

Mindy: Some of the best advice I've ever heard is that you don't have to convince the experts, you know what you're talking about, You have to convince the layman that you know what you're talking about. 

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Mindy: So when it comes to writing thrillers at this point, you have to be pretty mired in that particular world, I would imagine.

Lisa: I was kind of laughing because book 13 is called The Drowning Girls. And so obviously there's a drowning. I was going to write the autopsy scene and I realized, oh, I've done this drowning stuff a few times before. I was like, oh I don't even really have to do new research. I use a lot of medical journals and I talk to people in the field and I take notes. And so I just had to like, go back and refresh. There were some other things that I hadn't done before besides the drowning. So I did have a medical examiner read those pages for me and tell me, you know what I couldn't couldn't say. It's almost like I can slot the stuff in without even doing the research anymore because I've written about certain things so often.

Mindy: And when you first began doing that research back in Book one, What was your approach? How did you start cracking open that world? 

Lisa: I Had kind of a front row seat to that world in real life, years before I started writing crime thrillers because two members of my family had been murdered. And we went through the investigation and the arrests, the years leading up to the trial, this verdict, the sentencing, all of that stuff. That was my unwilling introduction to that world. And then I spent a lot of time in the Criminal justice Center, sitting in the hallway waiting for my turn to testify because they wouldn't let us watch each other testify. That place is filled with cops and detectives and people coming and going to various other trials. I was able to kind of pick the brains of a lot of different types of people. There was one guy, I actually met him on an elevator. He was part of Philadelphia's special victims unit and I had a great conversation with him about his work. So that kind of got me comfortable with cold calling police officers or detectives or medical examiners, whoever I needed to talk to to get the answers that I needed for my story. And I have a really good friend who I went to grade school with who works in a police department that is similar to the size of my fictional police department and he's really wonderful. He does answer all of my questions at any time of the day or night whenever I message him. So he's been a great help as well. 

Mindy: When you first were walking in and introducing yourself, you're not able to drop that I’m the USA Today Bestselling author...Your introduction now to someone I imagine is a little different than it was when you were first starting out. 

Lisa: It is. It was, it's a lot different actually. Um, I find that I get a lot more responses now. Whereas I would make 10 phone calls before and send 10 emails and maybe if I was lucky, one person would get back to me. And now pretty much as soon as I call someone or email someone, even if they can't help me, they'll get right back to me and say, you know, I don't have the answers to these questions. But it is a lot easier. Now I've been involved with the Writer’s Police Academy now for a couple of years and the gentleman that runs that, Lee Laughlin, is really super wonderful about getting me in touch with anybody I need. So if I'm really at a loss for who to talk to, I can contact him and say, hey, do you know any blood spatter experts or do you know any toxicologist? And those are his connections in law enforcement. So on his recommendations, they're usually pretty happy to answer my questions. 

Mindy: Have you ever reached out to someone and been like, hi, I'm Lisa Regan and had them email back and be like, oh my God, I read your books?

Lisa: No, actually.

Mindy: I wonder, again, if that is symptomatic of people that are behind the scenes not being able to read the fiction because it's just too frustrating for them. 

Lisa: Yes. I mean I've had people say, oh, I was a detective for however many years and I really love that you got this right. Never everything. But it's always like, oh, you got this one thing, right. And then I actually had a lovely woman email me a couple months ago and say, oh my God, you got this Gun positioning horribly wrong. And I was a detective for 20 years. I hate to see this because they only do it in the movies. And I wrote her back. And I was like, Hey, would you be willing to be a consultant for me for all future books? Can I hire you? And you can read them before they go to print. And she was like, oh yeah! I'm really looking forward to that. I think that's gonna be a lot of fun. 

Mindy: That is lovely. And I do think that weapons are difficult to write if you aren't intimately familiar with them. My boyfriend is a former Marine and he's like - I just can't even consider weaponry when I watch a movie or a show, it's just wrong. 

Lisa: My husband is a former Marine as well and he will stop the show that we're watching in mid show and be like they would never use this type of weapon. I always get the gun stuff right because of him. But in this case it was like the way that the detective was holding the gun was an issue which was something I hadn't given as much thought to because I'm usually so consumed with getting the actual weapons correct. 

Mindy: As a writer, I rely on my boyfriend obviously whenever there's a weapon involved because mine does the same thing. He'll stop it and be like this is why this is wrong. And I actually enjoy that because now I won't make that mistake. Right?

Lisa: Right. Absolutely. 

Mindy: We were watching something and I don't remember what it was. It was a good show. It was a good movie. But the detective, they were like sweeping a building. It was dark and so they had their flashlight and their gun. He was like well the way she's holding her hands, the light isn't leading the gun. It's the other way around, the gun is leading the light. So she won't see what she needs to shoot. Unless you are lucky enough to have a former Marine by your side it is difficult to get right. 

I actually co author under a pen name with a few of my friends. I was going through something one of my friends had written that a character had a weapon and she wrote that they “cocked the trigger,” and I was like, okay, no. You're not allowed to write weapons anymore. Leave it blank and write -  Mindy, write the weapon. And I'm like that's what we're gonna do from now on. I actually really enjoy co-authoring because I have my strengths and my friends have theirs and we end up having a lot of fun bouncing off of each other. 

Lisa: That is really cool. That's kind of on my bucket list would be to co-author with someone because I've never done that. 

Mindy: I really enjoy it, I have to say. So I want to talk about, I was looking for example, at your Amazon reviews. Just looking at the first book - you have over 6000 reviews. That's crazy. 

Lisa: It is amazing. Thank you to everyone who has left reviews. 

Mindy: Absolutely, that is a blessing. Because for people that don't know, the way the Amazon algorithm works is that if people are not only buying your book or viewing your book, but leaving reviews is a huge part of visibility and getting recommendations. If you enjoyed this, you would also like…  Those reviews really matter in a really big way. So are you just fortunate enough to have a very interactive fan base that they do this or do you have any actions that you take? Like encouraging people to leave reviews? 

Lisa: I wish that I had some kind of tip that I could give other writers, but it's all the fans, I mean they're fabulous, they're so engaged, it's astounding to me. I have a very, very active Facebook page and Instagram and Twitter and it's mostly because these fans and readers are there every day, you know. They started to feel like families, the ones that have been with me since my first book and those people, I'll drop their names in as character names just as a little surprise for them because every day they show up for me. They're just super, super, super engaged. I say that they're the best fans in the world and I really, really believe that. 

Mindy: You've got read through. It's very obvious. You even have a spike where your middle books have even more reviews. It wasn't like people just read the first book and got excited and read two or three. No, you've got even 7000 reviews On your 11th book. 

Lisa: Yes, it's so strange and I thought for sure the readership would fall off after so many books, because especially nowadays when so many demands are being made on our attention in general, entertainment wise and just with life. I would think it would be harder to keep up with a series. No, they're there for every single book, they're more invested with each book. The readership just keeps growing. Like I said, I wish I had some, you know, magic trick, I could tell other writers, but I really don't, I just have the most awesome fans in the world.

Mindy: That is wonderful. And I think it provides motivation for you as well, because I know when I first started out having a Twitter, I mean Facebook that was about all that existed when I first started out, but you know, you would post something and nobody would respond. Like they're my followers and they were all family members, you know, it's just really hard to be enthusiastic about social media yourself when you're just kind of shouting into a void. But I've been fortunate enough to build up a fan base and so if I post something, I will get a response from someone. Like somebody will like it or you know interact with it in some way, so that you get a reward yourself for being there and showing up. I can't imagine what a motivator that must be for you. 

Lisa: It's really amazing. And the best part for me is that I'm usually struggling through a book, you know With every book, I feel like there comes this low point where I'm just like, oh no, you know, this book is terrible, I'm going to disappoint all of my fans, I should just give up writing, I wasn't cut out for this. You know, you have this spiral of insecurity. I'll take a break and I'll check my notifications - never fails. There will be some wonderful message or email or tweet or DM from a fan saying, oh I just finished a book whatever number and it was fabulous and here's what I loved about it and here's what I love about Josie. If they listen to this, they'll know what I'm talking about. I will say, oh my God, thank you for that. Made my day. This is the lift that I needed. This is a little push that I needed to get past the lull. So it is really a gift and very useful. 

Mindy: It is kind of amazing, how when you are having a down day you do get those tweets, or those DMs or the emails that are like, hey, your book meant a lot to me or this had an impact on me. It is a lovely reminder that this is why you're doing it actually, it's because you want to reach people and influence people's lives. 

Lisa: Absolutely. 

Mindy: I think too, having a readership like that like you said also presents its own intimidation. Because like you were saying, you know, you have thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people that are going to be reading this book and you know that you are no longer writing for yourself or for a smaller circle. Like this is this is going to go out there and be under Christmas trees this year and have this presence. That has to be intimidating while you're writing.

Lisa: It’s very, very intimidating and the biggest thing for me is that these readers have been there for me, they've been there with me on this journey through every word, every up every down. And my biggest fear is disappointing them. I don't want to disappoint them with a terrible book. 

Mindy: And I think too, you end up in a situation where you have these people that care so much and are heavily emotionally invested in your fictional characters. You have to take that into consideration as you are writing them. 

Lisa: Oh definitely. So there's always a conversation with the editor with every book, how far are we going to go with jeopardizing certain characters? what are the readers going to accept and what will they find unacceptable? And are we doing this for a good reason to move the series narrative forward? Or is this just gratuitous? So that is something that we always talk about with every book. That

Mindy: That makes perfect sense. I have to say that I am rather well known for killing off very much loved characters. And this is why I don't know that I could ever write a long term series because I do like taking that gratuitous step. Obviously it is a lovely place to be. So, I might have to reconsider some of my approaches 

Lisa: I did kill off a series regular. I was so nervous about it. And I mean, believe me, the readers were very upset. They were like, I'm so upset, I'm crying, but I understand it's like, oh thank God. 

Mindy: Your characters can't be protected eternally simply because they are loved. It takes any sort of risk out of the plot. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Mindy: So if you haven't read any of Lisa's series, it's the Detective Josie Quinn series. The first one if you need to get started is called Vanishing Girls. And if you're looking for Christmas ideas for a Lisa fan, a Josie Quinn fan, The 13th book, The Drowning Girls comes out December 10. Last thing, why don't you let them know where they can find your books and if you have a particular indie bookseller that you would like for them to order from, that would be great to note. And then also where listeners can find you online. 

Lisa: If you're looking for a list of retailers, I always tell people, just go to my website, it's www.lisaregan.com My favorite indie bookstore is the Town Center Bookstore in Collegeville, Pennsylvania. That's my local indie bookstore. Again, if you want to find me on social media, you can start right at my website and I always tell people if you're on Facebook, come on over and like my Facebook page, even if you don't read my books. I give away lots of stuff and we also give away a lot of books by other authors. Even if you don't read my books, you're going to be over there, you'll get to participate in a lot of fun giveaways and you'll get to see pictures of my dog which everybody loves.

Mindy: That's always a bonus. 

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.