Mindy:   Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see as a guest.

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Mindy: We're here with Melissa Landers who is a fellow Ohioan and an author that has had a really interesting career path. One of the reasons why I wanted to have Melissa on the show is because she has not had the traditional path in a lot of ways. She has experimented, and she has done offshoots, and she has had lapses in her publishing career. And I think it's very important to talk about those careers as well. It's something that aspiring authors always wanna hear about - the overnight successes and people that hit the list and continue to hit the list and always do well. And the truth is that that is a very, very, very small percentage of people. Even continuing to publish is very, very difficult. For example, in my debut group of 2013, which was both YA and middle grade authors... Recently I was having a conversation with someone who was also a fellow lucky 13, and they said, "Hey, have you ever gone back and looked at our group and the people that we debuted with and done the math on how many are still traditionally publishing? Quite a few have found success in other arenas, but in the traditional publishing world have you ever gone back and looked?" And I was like, "No, I haven't." And just out of curiosity, I did, and I'm gonna take a stab at the numbers because I didn't write it down, and I'm not gonna take the time to go do that again. But I'm gonna say there were roughly 65 of us that were in this loosely knit group of debut YA and middle grade authors in 2013. And at the time that I looked, which might have been two or three years ago, I think maybe eight of us.

Melissa: Oh. Seriously?

Mindy: Yeah... Were still in the trad pub world. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on here because you have had hiccups, as you refer to them, in your career, but you keep coming back. So if you would just like to tell the audience just like a brief overview of your career and what it's been like.

Melissa: Well, when I first started writing, Alienated was the first book I ever wrote. And I was very, very lucky that it actually sold and it did super, super well. But I also was publishing adult contemporary romance under a pen name at that time, and I couldn't decide which I liked more. I didn't know which would take off better, and so for a long time I tried to do both. I do not recommend that unless you're just a naturally prolific author who spews awesome words without effort, because for me, it did burn me out. Looking back, if I could do it over again, I would have stuck to just YA sci-fi and spent all of my time and my resources simply on creating Melissa Landers as a brand. Because by trying to launch Melissa Landers and Macy Beckett, I was dividing and conquering myself, so there's lesson number one. I think I am up to 14 novels that are out or slated for publication through 2023, but I might be miscounting. I've been busy. You just may not have seen the fruits of my labor, because again - two different pen names. That's the first lesson that I would impart. Choose a name. Choose a genre. Choose a market. Invest in that brand.

Mindy: You and I met at different various writers conferences around Ohio. Ohio actually has quite a few writers, and it's got many book festivals and conferences that happen a lot. And so we do have a pretty tight-knit group of writers. And I remember when you were writing under Macy Beckett as well as your real name as a YA sci-fi author, because I believe we actually met at a conference that was partially romance-driven because if I remember correctly one of the big draws of that conference was that they had dudes that were cover models there.

Melissa: Was it Lori Foster's reader author get together?

Mindy: That's exactly what it was.

Melissa: That conference was the best. I miss it so much.

Mindy: Yes, that was fun. It is not my genre. It's not my niche. It was just a conference that was nearby, and any kinda writing conference is gonna have something for you if you're a writer. And I remember showing up and there were just like… ripped dudes just standing in the lobby just kind of flexing their pecks on and off, and I was just kind of like "maybe I should write romance." I remember you trying to take that, that two-pronged approach, and while, as you're saying, you wish that you had not necessarily been trying to do that at the same time, you learn from it. But also, man, all the skills that you picked up as an indie author before indie was huge, I'm sure that that's useful.

Melissa: Well, I actually wasn't indie. My first three romance novels were with Sourcebooks and my second two were with Penguin Random House. Now, I did get all of those rights reverted to me, and I put them up on... What is it? Kindle Unlimited. I haven't done a very good job really pushing those titles 'cause I'm not currently writing them. The only project that I did that was kind of not full indie more like a hybrid, was United, the third book in the Alienated series. Alienated did amazing. It earned out its advance like twice over. Invaded... The last time I looked I was like a whisper away from earning out on that. Because trilogies were not doing so well in the YA market at the time, Disney said if you do a third book we're only gonna put it out in ebook only. No print. Not even print on demand, and that was a deal breaker for me. So I partnered with a small publisher to get United out in hard cover. Did the cover design. I contracted out editorial. It was a lot of work, but I was really, really pleased with how it turned out.

Mindy: For listeners, just to clarify, when Melissa is saying that she earned out on Alienated what that means is that she earned her advance back, and it sounds like then again. That tells you how extraordinarily successful Alienated was. And if you're a whisper away from earning out on the sequel, that shows your read through and the success of Alienated being so great. So yeah, you had great success in the trad YA world right out of the gate with your first book with your name on it in that realm. And you were also writing in sci-fi, which had a moment, and as you're saying, trilogies were suddenly like a bad word. At first that was all you were ever supposed to do is write trilogies, and then, you weren't anymore. I have multiple friends that came out 2013, 2014 who were supposed to have trilogies and were asked, "Hey, do you think you could wrap it up in two? Because trilogies aren't hot anymore." So talk to me a little bit about how things changed career wise for you after you came out of the gate so hard with the first two books in this series. You improvised and did your third one on your own, and then what happened next for you?

Melissa: Alright, so we have Alienated, Invaded, United - that series nice, tied up in a little bow. My next series was Starflight, and that did extremely well too. Starfall, which is the sequel... Not as well. And so Disney said, "No more in this series. Give us something new." So I did. I decided to take a stab at writing high fantasy, and I came up with a proposal for a book called The Half King which is about a failed oracle who has to leave the temple where she's lived at since birth and travel to the palace to serve the Half King - a charming man who serves his kingdom by day and turns to shadow at sunset. Now, I sold this proposal to my former editor, not my current editor, my former editor, on... Let's see, three chapters and a synopsis. So about 50 pages. And she loved it. The whole team loved it. They sold in a two-book, six-figure deal. Currently, it is my only six-figure deal, and so this felt like a big career high for me. Now, I had a phone call with my editor after selling the proposal. I always like to do that, just to ask if there's any changes they wanna see as I complete the manuscript. "We love it. Just one thing. Do you think you can set it in space?"

Mindy: Oh my god.

Melissa: There was a disconnect when it came to expectations. What I did not expect to happen and what completely knocked me sideways was for my editor to completely reject the manuscript. I gave my publisher two different books. I did IPs. The first one, Blastaway, which was my only middle grade release, and it's super cute. I'm very proud of it. It's basically Home Alone in space. And then I gave them Lumara, which just released last month, which was pitched to me as Crazy Rich Asians but with witches. And again, so fun. So fun. My first experience with an unreliable narrator. And so I gave them those two books to replace the books in The Half King, and then my agent eventually sold The Half King elsewhere. I've since re-written it as new adult fantasy with lots of sexy sex.

Mindy: Nice.

Melissa: And it works so much better that way, but this stumble in The Half King completely interrupted my release schedule. The Half King was supposed to release in 2017, but it didn't. And then after Blastaway released, my editor left - went to a different publishing house. I had to wait for a new editor and then Covid happened, and my new editor had just said to my agent, "Hey, does Melissa like witches? I might have a great idea for her." But before we could get it approved, Covid happened and there were so many editors on furlough that they literally could not form an acquisitions committee.

Mindy: Oh.

Melissa: So for all of Covid, I was stuck. I had a contracted book, but I could not move forward on it. It was maddening, and that created an even bigger gap. And so Lumara just released last month and Blastaway released in 2018. A four-year gap in releases! And because publishing moves so slowly and because projects that are contracted now will not see the light of day for two years, just the slightest little stumble and bam, you have a many year gap in your release schedule.

Mindy: Absolutely, you do. That's something that almost happened to me with my third book, not necessarily that large of a gap, but I would have had a year without a release. With only two books out, that would not have been good. Long story short, there was a miscommunication. As you were saying, editors leave. They hop around, and my acquiring editor for my third book, which was A Madness So Discreet, had left Harper and had gone to a different publishing house. And there was a miscommunication to me about the due date for my first draft. I was given a date, and I was like, "Oh great. I have plenty of time." And the date that I was given was the date that it had to go to copy edits.

Melissa: Oof.

Mindy: Yeah, and I thought it was my first draft due date. And when they did hire my new editor, who's Ben Rosenthal, who is still my editor - we've done, I think, 10 books together now. Ben called me, and that was the very first conversation I had with my new editor... Was that he called me and was like, "Hey, I'm Ben, and I'm really excited to work with you and I loved Not A Drop to Drink. And I'm ready to read this manuscript. Whenever you can send it, please do." And I was like, "Oh, well, I mean I will, but I haven't written it yet, buddy. It's not due until this certain date." And he was like, "Oh, that's not... That's not accurate." I was just like, "Wait, what?" I had three weeks to write the book. They were like, look, you're not in breach of contract. There was a miscommunication on our end. We are sorry. You are not in breach, but we do need the book in three weeks. Or we'll take... You take a year off. And I was like, "Uhh. Well, this is how I make a living. So not taking your off. Gonna write a book in three weeks." And so that's what I did. I understand that it's pretty good. I can't tell you what happens in that book. I wrote it in a fugue state. You're right. Those lags. You can have that happen. You can have those gaps in your career, and because of the fact that there is such a long lead time in publishing, in traditional publishing, that gap, even if you have one stumble, it's gonna cost you two years maybe. How did you keep your readers aware of you as an individual? And if you do continue to use social media and a newsletter, how do you keep your readers at least aware that you exist for those four years?

Melissa: Honestly, I kind of didn't. I focused on if I posted anything to the Gram, it was personal. Like, here's a picture of me on vacation. I wasn't just spewing monotonous pictures of my books because, for me anyway, as a reader of myself, I don't like to see too much repetition from authors that I follow. I know what your cover looks like. I don't need to see it 20 times in my feed. Plus, there's the issue that my readership were originally teenagers - 2014 when Alienated came out. They are grown now. In fact... Oh my gosh, what a mind freak. So on Instagram, I follow the original cover model from Alienated. He is now married with a baby. They're adults now. They're grown. I don't know how many of them are still reading YA as adults, but I'm gonna take a stab and say not a ton. So, I didn't see the sense in spinning my wheels and trying to hold on to a readership that was aging out of the market. I just kind of let things be organic. I posted some things about my ordinary life, and I let the rest go. And then I kind of just got started again once Lumara was in production to promote that. I watch other authors spin their wheels on social media trying so so hard to clutch at readers, and it's almost like the harder you try, the more inorganic it feels, and the more you lose.

Mindy: Absolutely. I just had a conversation yesterday morning with Beth Revis, and Beth and I were talking about exactly this because I personally have lost any affection or pride or connection that I ever had with social media. And one of the main reasons is because I went through a break-up, right? Oh, about two months before the pandemic. I went through a break-up of a relationship that had lasted for 12 years. So, it was very upsetting. I was gonna make it and I was gonna be okay, but I was not interested in tweeting about my book or my life. I was like, "Dude, my life is really shitty right now." It's like I don't have a lot to say, and I'm not gonna post pictures of my cat. I'm just laying in bed crying pretty often. So it's like, this is not part of my life right now. I'm not doing social media. And I had been someone that was very active, and if there was a new platform, I was like, "alright what's this?" and getting involved. I really invested my time into that, and I had two hours every morning blocked off where I just used social media and interacted with other people and was involved in conversations and making my own content. And I totally dropped, shut down everything. Not even a, "Hey, going through a hard time. I'm not gonna be around for a little while” post. Nothing for three months, and literally no one noticed. It did not affect my sales in any way whatsoever. And I was like, "Alright, then what am I doing here? What is the point of this?" 

And so I had that happen, which was just right before the pandemic, and then in the years that have followed, social media has changed very much from when you and I first started using it. It is now very picture and video-based, and it didn't used to be. Facebook and Twitter were the first platforms that I was active on, and it was, how clever are you with words? What can you do with words? I can utilize that. I am not dancing. I'm not lip syncing. I'm not pointing to words on a screen. I am 43. I don't give a shit. I don't know what's popular. I'm not gonna pick the right music. I'm not gonna... There's like none of it. None of it. I have continued now to just be like, You know what? I'm not interested. And I agree with you completely, that if I were to try any way, it would just be pathetic.

Melissa: Yeah, you can tell when it's inorganic and it's, as my teenager would say, cringey. I'm kind of like you not wanting to share hard times. There was no way five years ago that I was gonna be on social media and say, "Hey guys, you haven't heard from me because I wrote something so broken, my own editor doesn't wanna work with me." No, I was ashamed. I was very hurt. And that really taught me a lesson about how fragile my self-esteem is and how tightly bonded my self-esteem is to my creative process. I was unable to write for the longest time, and then when I finally could write, I was just a black hole of need for validation. My critique partner, Lorie Langdon, she's been on your podcast before.

Mindy: Yes.

Melissa: She can tell you every time I sent her a chapter, I would follow up, "is it okay? Does it suck? Does it suck?" And she would be like, "Oh my God, Mel. No. It doesn't suck. This is awesome. Stop." I like to think that I was this big tough badass. I am so not a big tough badass. I am like a little fragile flower made out of tissue paper.

Mindy: That was something I wanted to ask you about - was how did you recover? Not only talking about a career or maintaining your social media or the financial aspect. How do you recover emotionally?

Melissa: Time, honestly. Time was the only thing. Time and being able to get into a new project and watch that succeed. And by succeed, I don't mean in the market. Blastaway didn't sell super well, but I am so proud of it. It is freaking adorable, and I hate that it didn't do as well. But sci-fi, it is what it is. When you write sci-fi, you kind of have your hits and misses. For the longest time, I could not touch The Half King. The thing with The Half King is it's a beautiful book. It really is, and I'm not just saying that 'cause I wrote it. I think that when it releases in 2023 people who love high fantasy romance are gonna connect with it. But it has so much beauty in it, and I just knew that it deserved to be out in the world. But every time I would open the file, I would freak out and shut it down again. I could not work on the book. Last year when it sold again, and then I had a call with the editor and made a plan, and even kind of getting started on it, it felt... Oh, this is gonna sound so stupid, but it felt like revisiting trauma. And it took probably a month before I really got into the flow of things and began to truly enjoy the process and reconnect with those characters. It took a long time for me to get my mojo back for that project. Paper flower, fragile.

Mindy: No, of course it did. That makes perfect sense to me, and I don't think you're using the word trauma lightly. I will share what happened to me just this past summer. Starting last Christmas, I made the decision that I didn't think I needed to be on anti-depressants anymore. I had been on something for 15 years, and I was feeling good. And I'm in a great relationship, and my career is good. And you know, I've got a dog. I'm fine, right? So I slowly weaned, and the weaning process was great. I got myself completely off of the antidepressants that I had been on for a very long time. There was a window where I was okay, and then there was a much larger space of time when I just... What? It was bad. It was really bad. And I did not realize how quickly it was happening, and I did not realize how bad it was. And friends and family were like, "Mindy, you need to go back on a medication." And I was like, "No, I'm fine. Everything's fine. I'm fine. This is still just withdrawal." I was writing my 2024 release while I was basically having a nervous breakdown, and I didn't know it. I was aware that things were very wrong, but I just kept saying to myself that I am okay and this will pass. And it didn't. And I wrote my 2024 release, which is called Under This Red Rock, while I was going through the worst mental health period of my life. I wrote the book, and I turned it in, and I hit my deadline. And I emailed it to my editor, and I was like "Ben, here it is. This is not good. And I'm sorry, but I'm probably going crazy. And this is the best I can give you right now." And he was like, "Okay, alright." And he was like, "I'm sure that your version of horrible is probably a lot better than you think, and take care of yourself." 

I did end up going back on medication right around Thanksgiving. Ben had gotten back to me, and he had sent me my edit letter. And he was very kind, but my level of what I aim to turn in to my editor - that was not there. And I did give him a first draft. And it was a nine-page edit letter, and there were some pretty big problems. And, like you're saying, I can't work with this right now. And at that point, I had gotten back on medication, and I was going through the acclimation phase, which I still am. I can't do this right now. I didn't wanna read it. I didn't wanna open it up. I didn't wanna have anything to do with that manuscript because I felt so shitty while I was writing it, and I got myself into a much better mental space. I got back on medication, and I was able to do the edit. Like you said, even then, just the experience of reading it, it is almost a physical place that you go to and I had to go back there. For one thing, the book itself is heavily involved with a mental illness plot line. I was dealing with writing the fiction of it while also reliving how I had felt while I was writing it, and you're absolutely right. It's difficult.

Melissa: From the beginning, ever since Not A Drop to Drink, your brand is kind of dark and gritty, right? My brand is light, funny, and when you're in a bad mental place, guess how easy it is to write light and funny.

Mindy: Oh, I can't even imagine.

Melissa: My previous editor at Disney... One of the projects that I had pitched to her when I was trying to fulfill this last book on my contract was one of my 2023 releases. She rejected it because she felt like it was a better fit for the adult market, but my new editor at Hyperion absolutely loved it as much as I do. And it is very funny. It's basically like a Jessica Jones meets Veronica Mars. It's a murder mystery, and it is humor and sarcasm from start to finish. And I wrote it over the summer when the sun was out, and I didn't have seasonal depression. And I felt good, and life was good. And I was happy, and I was in a good place. And when I tell you that book just bloomed out of me effortlessly, it was the most fun I've ever had writing in my life. It's kind of miraculous what you can do when your mental health is in a good place.

Mindy: It is. It is. You're absolutely right about my brand and what I write. Obviously, I have no problem talking about mental illness, so I will just keep going. I've been thinking a lot about how I'm gonna talk about this book because it does have a major mental illness aspect for my main character, and I was not in a great place when I was writing it. And people have been asking me, "What do you have coming out next? What's going on next?" And I'm like, "Guys... " So I have a release in March of this year, of 2023, and it is my lightest, happiest - I mean, it's a murder mystery, don't get me wrong, and there's some dark things - but it is my lightest, happiest, and probably most hopeful book that I've ever written. And I wrote it, of course, while I was on medication. Just in a really good place. Things were... Everything was really good when I was writing it, and I actually remember working on that book, which is called A Long Stretch of Bad Days, when I was writing a darker scene or a more upsetting scene or something where my main character was not in a great place, I had to kind of work at it. You know sadness. You know how it feels, and I had to kind of dig for it. And writing my 2024 release, which is called Under This Red Rock, there might be three lines in it that are funny, because I do try to have a little bit of lightness somewhere in all of my books. My 2023 is actually funny. I just got my Kirkus review, and they made a comment about how funny it is. Yes, thank you. Because it's like I always try to have some funny in there, and that's not what I'm known for. My 2024 release I was in the total opposite place, mentally, where I was like, "Okay, you know what funny is, and you know what funny means, and you're able to make jokes, and you've made jokes before. So write something funny because you just wrote 30 pages of just deep dark black shit."

Melissa: The old advice - “butt in chair, hands on keys” - it's great if the rest of your life is also great. But if your life is falling apart around you, your emotions are in shambles, “butt in chair, hands on keys” doesn't yield the same output, and then that comes across on the page and all has to be re-written anyway.

Mindy: Let's talk about Lumara, which is your book that just came out last month. And that one is something, from my understanding, it has helped you get right back on to your trajectory and put you back on your path.

Melissa: Yes, yes, and Lumara is an IP. It was actually my editor's idea when she reached out right at the beginning of the pandemic and said, "Hey, does Melissa like witches?" I had just enough time to say Melissa loves witches and then the pandemic and everything went sideways.

Mindy: Yeah.

Melissa: But yeah, she said, I have this idea. It's an unreliable narrator. Magic. This island with living properties, and I was sold immediately. And so it was so much fun to plot the book with her assistance and to explore magic in a modern day setting. So Lumara is set in a world where magic is real, and everybody knows it's real. It's not hidden. Like in Harry Potter. Magic is real. We all know it. And people who can do magic are called mystics, and they are treated like modern day celebrities. There's Mystegram. There's mystecon - you know, kinda like comicon only just for magic - where you can go and you can buy spells and you can get healed. And so this is the world you live in, but the main character, Talia, hates mystics. Hates them because she had a really bad experience and was basically ripped off of her whole life savings from one. Everybody knows she hates mystics. She won't shut up about it, and then one day she learns that her boyfriend, who she loves very, very much, is not only a mystic, but the son and heir to the most wealthy, powerful, mysterious mystic family in the world. And his cousin is getting married, and he can bring a date. And he wants Talia to come home to his private island with him and meet the family. But once she gets there, all hell breaks loose. It's an unreliable narrator. So if I say too much, I spoil it. But it's a mystery. Murder, generational curses, magic, love, betrayal - all my favorite things.

Mindy: Would you like to mention your 2024 release?

Melissa: Oh, yeah. I would love to. My 2023 releases... The Half King should be coming along fall/winter - I'm not really sure - from Red Tower Books. Again, this will be my first new adult release. Sex on the page - explicit. So not for my younger teen readers.

Mindy: I'm ready.

Melissa: And then my Hyperion release will be December 5th of 2023, and that's called Make Me A Liar. And that's the one that I said was the most fun book I've ever written. Basically a teenage girl with the power of transferable consciousness hires herself out for side hustles, but while she's in the body of a client someone uses her body to commit murder in public. She has to prove that even though her body committed the crime, her mind was not in it at the time.

Mindy: Wow, that's fascinating. I love that.

Melissa: Well, you know, I can't just write a normal murder mystery. It has to have some kind of weirdness in it.

Mindy: So last thing. Why don't you let readers know where they can find you online, and then also where they can get Lumara.

Melissa: Perfect, yes. You can find me online at Melissa dash Landers dot com, and you can sign up for my email newsletter there. And I promise it's not spammy. I only send out a newsletter when I have a new release launching. You can find me on all the usual social media sites: Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. As far as Lumara, you can order that from your retailer of choice. And right now, Make Me A Liar and The Half King should also be available for pre-order. So, if either of those titles sounded interesting to you, I hope you'll preorder them.

Mindy:     Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.