Mindy:             Today's guest is Kelly Coon, author of the YA fantasy Gravemaidens, which recounts the tale of two sisters come on a 16 year old healer's apprentice who wants to save the dying ruler of her city state, and then Nanaea, Kamani's little sister who will be buried alive as the ruler's bride if he dies. Kelly joined me today to talk about how to make a fantasy stand out in the crowded YA market by making her female main character have understated strength.

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Mindy:             Most of my listeners are aspiring writers and a lot of them are in the query trenches themselves. So why don't you talk a little bit about your process of landing an agent.

Kelly:               Okay. It was a process. Indeed. It took me a long time. I might not be the best person to go to for advice. I started writing a novel in 2005 I never sold it. I really thought I was an amazing writer. So I wrote this book it was an Odyssey retelling, YA fiction. And I queried and I was shocked - and this is back when you would send paper copies - and I was shocked when I was getting all the envelopes back and they were all rejections and I'm like, what? This is amazing. I had always been told I was an amazing writer and I was just absolutely not. So I continued along that path of absolutely not having a clue, wrote a total of three books that way, and just queried my brains out and not till I really kind of had a growth mindset and discovered that I might be a good writer but I am not a good novelist and really dove into the process of what writing a book was about and specifically writing a book for teens was about did I have any kind of progress at all.

Kelly:               I went to a conference, I pitched my book, I got some interest, they told me like your writing is great and your pitching is fantastic, but your premise is not what we're looking for. So I rewrote it, completely scrapped my idea, wrote Gravemaidens, sent it out, and then I got 11 requests for the full. I sent out 11 queries, got 11 requests for the full. I had to solidify a good premise that I knew would be marketable, lower my pride and realize that I had a lot to learn. But I had 106 rejections before that cause I kept track on a spreadsheet.

Mindy:             I did too. And so you said you wrote your first novel in 2005 and begin querying. What year was it when you landed your agent for Gravemaidens?

Kelly:               2017 in April. My agent is Kari Sutherland. She's with Bradford literary. She used to be an editor at Harper Teen. She actually was the acquiring agent for a Red Queen and Pretty Little Liars. So when she requested my full, within a couple hours after sending my query, I remember I was sitting in Whole Foods writing in their little cafe, sent my query, and then I got an email back from her requesting the full and I freaked out because the fact that she was an agent at all was blowing my mind and the fact that she wanted it was, I mean, I was speechless. So I sent it back to her and then she offered within a couple of weeks, another agent offered as well. And I went with Kari because we just really connected super well over the phone.

Mindy:             So 12 years, 2005 to 2017 and I actually love it.

Kelly:               I didn't start querying in 2005 I started writing my book in 2005. I finished it in 2007. I had a baby and was like, Holy crap, I'm not getting any younger. If I'm going to do this, I need to finish it. Having my first son kind of motivated me to just finish my novel. So I started querying in 2007 so 10 years total.

Mindy:             You started this story by saying, I'm not the best person to come to for advice, but I disagree because I myself was querying for 10 years. Listeners will know this, I've said this a million times, but I didn't land an agent for 10 years and a lot of the reasons why are so similar to yours. I really thought that I was just amazing and I really wasn't. Like when I read the manuscripts that I was querying then, they were so bad and this is not mock humility. They were awful. They're terrible like I DNF'd them. They were not readable. But you got to realize that. But, and the other thing is that's really important is that in order for you to be able to write and to query for 10 years, you have to believe that you are good or you have to believe that you will make it. Like you can't sit there knocking out stuff and being like, well this is crap. Right? You're like, you're going to stop if you believe it. So there's obviously a pride element and you need to get knocked down a few pegs. But the element of not quitting, of still believing in yourself, believing that you have the ability, but learning that you have to refine it.

Kelly:               At one point I was like, am I completely delusional? I had my undergrad in creative writing and my masters in English. People used to tell me all the time, you're a great writer. I love reading it. Write something else. You can do this, and I was like, are all those people just completely delusional? Am I one of them as well? There was a point when I really did doubt myself, like officially doubt myself. I always doubted myself a little bit and just would, but I was like, you know what? You can keep going. I'm nothing if not persistent. I'm kind of like a bulldog sometimes I don't plan very well, but I will go for it. There was one point I was sitting on the couch next to my husband and I had gotten maybe my 106th rejection probably. It really was. I think just a couple of days before Kari emailed me back telling me she wanted to chat and I was like, you know what, am I completely delusional?

Kelly:               Like have I lost touch with reality? Maybe I'm not meant for this kind of writing. Cause I was doing all sorts of other writing and was really successful doing it and I'm like maybe I'm just not a novelist. And my husband looked at me, he's like, remember that old saying, those guys who went mining for gold and they stopped just a couple of meters away from where there was this giant pile of gold? Like you're there you are in that pit. Just keep digging. His encouragement pushed me just to hold on for a little bit longer. I got the offer of representation from Kari two days later.

Mindy:             But you do have to have those people telling you that you can do it because if people are telling you you can't, that's not, that's not going to help. It's a bizarre little world and it is a small world. And the thing that you find, at least that I found was that if you're querying for that long now, I was querying multiple manuscripts over the course of the 10 years. I think I was querying like five different novels and I had gotten to the point where agents knew who I was. When I queried them they would be like, Oh, I remember you. You've queried me before. And so it's wonderful because then I've even run into them like now as a published author, I run into the agents that rejected me like three or four or five times conferences and stuff. And it's kind of cool because we actually like have a relationship to be able to continue those relationships.

Mindy:             And I always tell people, you know, if you get a rejection on a full or if you get repeated blanket rejections and you react badly, it's like agents remember that. Like they remembered my name even though I was not really interacting with them in any kind of personal way. It was just through the queries. My name was popping up in their inbox enough that they were like, I remember you. And so you know, you're just always being polite and always interacting because it is a very small world and they do talk to each other. So if you misbehave, people will know.

Mindy:             So you mentioned Gravemaidens. It is your debut novel. It is a young adult fantasy, which is a crowded market right now. And just given the dates that you gave me for when you were querying, you got picked up right when fantasy was starting to blow up. So now with it being kind of a more competitive arena, especially in the YA market, how do you find your niche for Gravemaidens as a debut in a crowded marketplace for YA fantasy?

Kelly:               There's a few factors. I think part of it is character development because good characters are always going to be in fashion and be in demand. If you can write a character that is relatable on a wide spectrum, whether you're a fantasy reader or Sci Fi or contemporary, wherever you are, if you write a character that people fall in love with personally, it doesn't matter what the genre is. I read a wide variety and honestly I connect with a character, so I tried really hard to make my characters, people that you could sit in a room with and get to know them. That's part of it. Also, I don't have a princess in a castle. I have a healer. My main character is a healer and she's, she's a Hufflepuff like a lot of fantasy MCs, especially girls are Gryffindors. They're brave or they're Slytherin, you know, they're kind of brave or cunning or they maybe don't like violence, but they are willing to use violence.

Kelly:               And my narrator is a healer in her chief goal is to keep people alive even if those people are not people that she cares about. So she's kind and compassionate and I think that's a little bit of a twist on the YA fantasy market. She's unlike a lot of other characters where she, she wants to save her sister from dying with a Lugal and if that means healing the Lugal, a man who had been notoriously terrible to her in the past, she'll do it and while she does it, she will even have compassion for him. There's a scene in the book where she's kneeling by his pallet after she's just treated him and she's confused about why he's so sick and she grabs his hands and she's kind of, uh, you know, rubbing his knuckles against her face. And really her heart goes out to this man, even though he has been just so terrible to her family, compassion still comes through. And for me, I think I hadn't read anything like that.

Mindy:             I like that. I like that a lot. For a long time, everybody was writing the strong female character when strong was taken, literally it was always about being a fighter and being a fierce woman. That really became the definition of female strength for a long time, especially in YA. And that is not of course an accurate representation of the different many facets of female strength. And I love what you're saying and I think it's a great point. I love the idea of the healing and the compassion, especially given everything that we're dealing with in the real world today. That being a strength and conveying that message.

Kelly:               Yes, absolutely. I am not as compassionate as she is honestly. Like I'm a Ravenclaw through and through for me. Sometimes I'm like, you know, get yourself up, pick yourself up, you got this, shake yourself off. A lot of times I've talked to my kids that way and I have to remind myself to be more compassionate and be more kind. So she is completely different from me. I actually don't have any idea where she came from. I've had friends who have read this and been like, wow, she is so different from you. Like how do you write in first person POV, somebody who is not like you at all.? And I'm like, you know, I have no idea. That is a mystery. I have no idea where she came from, but I admire her like I want to be like her,

Mindy:             You know, I have a theory and why you have written someone that is very different from you. Yeah, absolutely. I think as authors often we write characters who represent something we wish we could be.

Kelly:               You know what, that's probably very true. Like cause I, like I said do admire her and I think she has so many great qualities. Sometimes I'm too hard lined and she has softer edges and that's admirable and it's not often celebrated.

Mindy:             No, not at all. Which is why I think you're right that that is a good angle for your book. I am fascinated by this idea that we do this almost like almost a fantasization of an element of ourselves that we ourselves would like to see encouraged more, are giving, even giving our characters abilities we wish we had. I mean sometimes that's just a great escape for us.

Kelly:               No, she is kind of like nerd girl. So she does like learning and she gets all of those elements from me but she actually admires her sister Nanaea and how she can kind of give into moments of beauty and kind of relax and just enjoy herself. Kammani sometimes is too worried like in the middle of a party Kamanni's worried about her responsibilities and I mean she gets that from me. I really admire people who kind of can give into a moment and just throw all the responsibilities and worries aside and just give in and there are parts of me that are like that but as I've gotten more kids and gotten more responsibility a lot of times it's hard for me to let go and not be the one trying to control a situation or something. I put a little bit of that. My desire is what I would like to be more of in her sister Nanaea as well.

Mindy:             Coming up, how editing and being an ACT test prep writer helped Kelly and her fiction.

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Mindy:             So speaking of Gravemaidens, that is your first novel, but you are no stranger to publishing. You are the editor for Blue Ocean Brain. You're included in the Washington Post talent network. And have also authored two strategy guides to acing the act. So if you could talk a little bit about each of those elements that are different avenues for your work because you already alluded to the fact that you knew you were a good writer. And obviously these things that I'm mentioning are very different type of writing. So if you could talk a little bit about your writing, how your writing skills are challenged in different ways by each of these facets of your professional life.

Kelly:               Oh sure. I'm an editor as you said, and I loved that job. It has taught me so much about cleaning up my writing. I have 13 writers that write for me and every day I'm reading their work and I'm streamlining what they send me. There was a New York Times article and he talked about greening your work. In the old days they would have to physically go through an article and green it out with the green highlighter words that were unnecessary or that were filler. As an editor, I do that with my writers. As a novelist it has really helped me clean up what I'm writing. So if I have this long passage of texts, I can go through and say what are the things that will add to the atmosphere or detract from the atmosphere? Or is it a sentence I just think is beautiful? And if that's the case it probably needs to go.

Kelly:               Like if I'm firing my own work and it's taking away from the story, I should probably just cut it. My editor job really helps me kind of knowing what to keep and knowing what to get rid of. The Washington Post that is just fun. I've been published with two personal essays in the Washington Post and that was about fleeing hurricane Irma and the decision to do that. I live in Florida. It was a terrifying part of my life and I was able to write those essays and kind of talk about what it felt like to have that decision to make: stay and kind of hunker down or go. I mean that kind of really helped me hone into my emotion I think as I'm writing. And then the ACT test prep books, that was all about research. I have never researched more in my life than I did when I was writing my ACT test prep books.

Kelly:               I was a test prep author. I was a test prep specialist for about.com back when it was about.com for seven years. I got approached by the research and education company, asking me if I would like to write an ACT test prep manual for them and because I cannot say no to a challenge. I was like, sure, I'm writing about it every day. It will be easy and reader, it was not easy. It was definitely the most challenging thing I've ever done. I had to get help with math. I was like, I cannot write these questions, and I had a good friend of mine who helped me with science as well. He wrote some of them. I wrote some of them. We ended up selling this book. It was amazing, but I even, I read it now, I flip back through it from time to time and I'm like, how did I do this? I don't even know how I did it.

Mindy:             I understand that feeling. When I look back at some of my papers that I wrote in college, like the critical analysis and things like that and I'm just like, who is this girl? She was so much smarter than I am now. I'm like, who is this 20 year old? What is she talking about? Oh my God, that's hilarious.

Kelly:               It like pushes me and it reminds me that when I want to do something, when I feel like, you know, I get my notes back from my editor on the sequel or something and I'm like, wow, there is no way I can do this. I know what you're asking and I know where you want it to be, but my brain cannot do this, that I remind myself, wait a minute, you can absolutely do this. So it's helpful. It's helpful to know that it's something difficult so that you know you can do it again, like childbirth.

Mindy:             Yeah. Childbirth is a great example. Yeah, I agree completely. I'm actually sitting on an edit letter right now that I am delaying working on, even though it's for, let's see, it'll be my 10th book and I'm just like, I can't do that. You know? I'm just like, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to edit. I don't know how to revise. This is hard. I don't know how to do this. I'm going to break it this time. I'm going to break it. Right? And you know, I know that's not true. I know that's not true, but I'll tell you something - when I have an edit letter waiting on me, my house is so goddamn clean. Last time I had an edit letter, I defrosted the deep freezer. I was like, you know what that needs to get done. That needs to get done right now. That's next level procrastination right there.

Kelly:               I tend to start organizing, I organize my kitchen and I take out all the Tupperware and put it back in because that's something I can manage. That's easy. But yeah, the edit letter is too difficult. So we avoid that. Well usually I read it and cry and then call my agent and then she calms me down because she's basically my therapist and then we talk about it and she's like, remember you can do this. And I'm like, Oh yeah, I can. I talk with my editor. I'm like, okay, okay, so this is manageable. Then I cry again. Then I edit and then it works out.

Mindy:             I drink. That's mine. Um, I get the edit letter. Yeah, I don't usually have a drink like just at home. Like socially I'll have a drink but I'm just not somebody that winds down with like a glass of wine or whatever. I'm more likely to have some tea or something. But when I get an edit letter I'm like, I'm going to, I'm going to drink. I'm just going to get to that fuzzy stage where you feel like everything's okay. And then I'll read it again when I'm in a fuzzy stage and then I'm like, all right, you know, process that. But I have a friend who actually gets an edit cake when she gets her edit letters. She doesn't read it. She goes down the street to the bakery and buys like a sheet cake and then she like eats cake while she's reading her edit letter.

Kelly:               Listen, she has something because that is a way to manage and maybe, maybe I should try that.

Mindy:             Her husband will see a cake in the fridge and he's like, Oh shit.

Kelly:               Well see my husband knows that you're at edit letter cause I'm like draped across the bed sobbing. He's like, Oh, the edits came in, didn't they?

Mindy:             That's a perfectly normal reaction. Everybody I know they, they either drink too much, eat too much, or cry too much as soon as they get their edit letter. So that's okay that that's a normal part of the process. Absolutely.

Mindy:             Lastly, marketing on your own, the constant hustle and the benefits of having a street team.

Mindy:             I asked you a little bit about how Gravemaidens is going to stand out in the market for readers in the YA fantasy genre, but I want to talk to you about marketing and how you are going about getting word out about Gravemaidens because social media is a crowded place. We're all vying for attention. We're all shouting at the same people all the time. So what are your methods here for your debut book? How are you supporting the marketing efforts of your publisher? Like what are your methods?

Kelly:               This was something that was not entirely new to me because although I don't have a major in marketing or anything like that, I do have a small business. So my husband and I with some business partners, own some condos on the Gulf of Mexico and I for a long time was the person in charge of renting them and marketing them and getting customers. That was my job. So I did know a little bit about sales plus right after college when I graduated with my creative writing degree, I went right into sales because who is going to hire someone with a creative writing degree that did not have a journalism internship? No one. So I went into that was lucrative and then I hated it. So then I went and got my degree in teaching and then I taught for a while. So I did have some experience in sales.

Kelly:               However, marketing for a book is entirely a different beast. And also I thought being a newbie kind of writer at first I thought Hey my publisher is going to handle all of this and they're going to be the ones who do it all. But that is not the case. As I learned. They do a ton and I'm super grateful for everything that Delacorte Press is doing. And I mean cause it's a lot comparatively to some, you know, other books. So what I've been doing personally to try to find my way, I did a couple of things. I joined class of 2k19 which is a marketing group. There's 20 authors that are middle grade and young adult debuts. I joined that group. We all kind of pitch in for money and then we do joint things. So like we've done joint mailers that we've sent out to 800 different librarians and bookstores.

Kelly:               Oh we do chats, we do social media pushes. We have someone in charge of conferences where we're kind of trying to book each other. So that was one kind of arm of my strategy. Another arm was I got a street team together so I could have some more people who actually have ins in this area to help support me. That has been one of the biggest joys of this entire thing is having this group of people. I have a Twitter DM chat for all of us. We get in there and just kinda chat about books. And I asked them sometimes like, Hey, can you do this? And they're like, sure. I think I have an interview coming up with almost everyone in the group. So they're posting it on their blogs. A lot of them are book bloggers or fellow authors or librarians. They're supporting me in that way.

Kelly:               My publicist emailed all of them bookmarks and they are passing them around requesting it at their libraries. So I have this team of people behind me that are extending my reach that I obviously would not have. I also did a preorder campaign myself that was mostly paid for by me. Delacorte press did the bookmarks and the book plates, but I ordered the enamel pin myself. I ordered the laptop sticker. I commissioned, um, a little mocktail card to be made and I've been mailing them all out myself. I decided to take some of the advance that I got and put it back into marketing so that I could try to get my name out there a little. And I know some people can't do that because their advance goes directly to their bills. I recognize that I am privileged in that way, able to do that, that I have another job and I have a husband who also has a good job.

Kelly:               So I'm able to do that, which, and I recognize that it's a privilege. So I'm doing that. And then I'm also trying to be as active as possible on social media and I'm reaching out to conferences, pitching myself, reaching out to bookstores, pitching myself. I set up my entire bookstore tour, myself and my publicist, she supported me in that and has helped me make connections if I didn't have them. But I was like, I'm going to go and pitch myself. Everyone's been really receptive. I have been busting my butt trying to get the word out about this.

Mindy:             Yup. And that's the way to do it. Um, I was a member of the class of 2k13. I am so glad that I made that decision because two of like my closest friends now are from the class and we worked together on multiple projects and also just everyone in that class. We actually, the YA authors anyway, that we are still publishing and we run into each other all the time. We're actually pretty close and honestly it's like bonds were forged and there are people that I talk to literally every day of my life now that I would not have as friends if I didn't do that and I'm so so happy about that. And you were also mentioning just beating the pavement and getting out there and putting yourself in front of people and talking to people and presenting yourself to people.

Mindy:             That is how you do it, especially in your local area. Putting yourself in front of librarians, booksellers, people that are organizing conferences. I'm telling you I did that and it just felt like I was waving my own flag under their noses all the time and just announcing myself and I'm not a salesperson. I have become one now I have become one. I have learned how, especially when you're doing hand selling at a table in like a festival or something like that, you absolutely have to, you've got to learn how to do that and I'm telling you all the efforts that you're putting in right now, they will pay off because I was published in 2013 so here we are six years later and I don't even advertise anymore. People just reach out because I've done enough events and I have put myself in enough places, especially the library circuit, that word of mouth, the organizers and the librarians and the event coordinators, they just email each other and booksellers, same thing.

Mindy:             They're like, Hey, we just had Mindy McGinnis. She gives a great presentation. She's reasonably priced. You should reach out to her for your planning. Like I said, I don't reach out anymore. People come to me and like this month I think I've got about 20 things booked. And that was all just invitation and maybe that's just six years of beating the circuits. It does work. Those little ripples of throwing stones out in the pond, they spread. But the other part is that I will say yes to just about everything. I really will and they recognize that. So if it's a tiny little town, which is where I'm from and they're like, we can only give you this much money. I'm like, that's fine, I'll do it.

Mindy:             I've never regretted it. I love doing it. I love putting myself in front of people. That's how it works. Like that to me is just being physically present, doing a good job when you're there. Word will spread.

Kelly:               Well good. I mean that is really actually good to hear. If there's anything I've got it's hustle. I mean I've always had that and I'm always willing to push hard and I'm not someone who kind of gets beaten down as easily. Sometimes I think like I wonder what my breaking point is? Because I haven't reached it yet, but um, I'm always willing to kind of give it a shot and see what happens. I'm grateful that it's working out for you and I'm hopeful that eventually it will work out for me as well.

Mindy:             It will, it will you reach critical mass. But I will say you talk about a breaking point. I have had in these six years I've had three events where no one showed up, like literally zero people were interested in coming to see me and that's okay.

Kelly:               I hear it's common. I've had friends who are, debuts who were, you know, New York times bestsellers who said, Hey, I did an event and literally no one came or one person showed. And for whatever reason I think maybe my years of teaching, that doesn't frighten me at all. Like not in the least. I know for some people who are more introverts, I am like your typical extrovert. But for people who are introverts, I know that might be horrifying or you know, they just have to muster up their nerve to go there and the rejection might be too much. But I've been rejected so much in my life that I'd kind of be like, ah, you know what? There's just me and you. Let's go have lunch. That doesn't terrify me. Maybe it won't, because I've never experienced that. But maybe it will be horrifying. But for me, I don't know that, I'm not afraid of that.

Mindy:             But even you were talking about debut authors who have events and nobody shows up. I had one of my zeros no-shows two weeks ago. Yeah. And that's okay. I mean it's good. It keeps you humble.

Kelly:               See, I like looking for the opportunities in failing. You know, even if it's not your failure, it's marketing failure or whatever. I like looking for that. Something that you can take away from it. And I, I teach that to my boys too. You fail a test, congratulations. Because you have the opportunity to learn from that and to grow from it. And if anything else, it gives you humility, which humility only can lead to better things. That doesn't scare me away. Not yet. Hasn't yet. Maybe one day it will.

Mindy:             If anything, the organizer, like she was so upset and she was like, I am so sorry. I am so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I was like, honey, it's okay. I was like, trust me, you are not the first person that has stood in front of me saying, I am so sorry that no one showed up. You can't control it. You can't control other people and it's hard to get people to show up, man. Especially when your target audience is teens and they don't have their own transportation. It's fine. As you said. I agree. Humility is a gift. Being humble is so important in this industry and so when zero people show up I'm like, okay, knock me down a peg. That's cool. I probably needed it, you know?

Kelly:               Exactly.

Mindy:             Last question, what are you working on right now and where can listeners find you online?

Kelly:               Since Gravemaidens, I've written three other books. People are asking me questions about Gravemaidens and I actually have to flip back through and reread it because I'm like, did that happen with all the millions of edits that we went through? I cannot remember and my goal is to reread the book before my launch event so I can actually answer questions about it. I wrote the sequel. Gravemaidens is a duology and we haven't announced the title yet, but that's coming soon. But I wrote the sequel. We're actually in line edit for the sequel right now.

Kelly:               I wrote a young adult Sci Fi that's a Scarlet letter retelling that's being considered right now by my publishing house. That's my option. So I'm fingers crossed for that one for me. And then I also wrote a contemporary, uh, I just the first draft of a contemporary with speculative elements. If I have this urge to write and if I have these ideas, I want to go for it while I've got it. Because sometimes I feel like you might have peaks and valleys and in those valleys I want to honor that. And if I'm not feeling like I have it or I don't want to, or there's something else going on where I can't, then I want to take advantage of it. When I do have the opportunities, I felt like I wanted to write these. So I did.

Mindy:             Yes, I agree with you 100% when you have inspiration, never turn your back on it. Go with it. If you feel like writing and you're on fire for an idea, write it. Write it while it's hot.

Kelly:               Exactly. Cause there've been moments where I'm staring at my page. It was really difficult for me to start the sequel to Gravemaidens. I knew what I wanted to do. It had been a long time since I was in that head space. I actually wrote my Sci Fi before I wrote the sequel. So I was in this other person's head space. So getting back into Kammani's point of view was I was like, who wrote this? Like I was looking at Gravemaidens. I'm like, is that me? Like is that my voice? Is that her voice? Because I had switched voices so completely that was tough to get into. So it took a while to start. I had trouble with that and then, but then once I got into it and stuff then I'm like, Oh there she is. It just took awhile. Kind of put her clothes back on. And then you also asked you where people can find me online. Well. My website is Kelly coon.com and then I'm on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook at Kelly Coon106.