Mindy: Welcome to Writer Writer Pants on Fire, where authors talk about things that never happened to people who don't exist. We also cover craft, the agent hunt, query trenches, publishing, industry, marketing and more. I'm your host, Mindy McGinnis. You can check out my books and social media at mindymcginnis dot com and make sure to visit the Writer Writer Pants on Fire blog for additional interviews, query critiques and more as well as full transcriptions of each podcast episode. at WriterWriterPants on Fire.com. And don’t forget to check out the Writer, Writer, Pants on Fire Facebook page. Give me feedback, suggest topics you’d like to hear discussed, and let me know if there is someone you’d love to see a a guest.

Mindy:             Today's guest is Fiona Davis, historical novelist, national bestseller and library darling. Fiona Joined me today to talk about the 125th anniversary of the New York Public Library, which is the setting for her newest book, The Lions of Fifth Avenue. We talk about writing historical fiction, research methods, the difficulty of writing dual timelines and the difference between writing recent history versus the past.

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Mindy:             My podcast is primarily directed at aspiring authors and also quite a few published authors listen as well. So, as an accomplished historical novelist, I'd like to talk a little bit about perhaps some research methods. But most importantly with your newest release, the Lions of Fifth Avenue, which takes place in the New York Public Library and features some lesser known aspects of the library. As an author myself, one of the things that really attracts me to it is the fact that you have dual time lines at work. So could you talk a little bit about that method and how you use it in the Lions of Fifth Avenue?

Fiona:              Yes, sure happy to. So my book, there's two timelines. It's in 1913 and that's from the point of view of the wife of the library superintendent, whose name is Laura. And she lives in an apartment deep inside the library with her husband and two kids, and this is an apartment that actually existed, and she is surrounded by all this knowledge. But she really feels stifled. And so she applies to Columbia Journalism School and gets in, and suddenly her world is really blown wide open.

And then I jumped back and forth with 1913 and the 1993. And that's from the point of view of a character named Sadie. And she's a curator at one of the collections of rare books and manuscripts at the library called the Berg Collection, which again actually exists. And she is putting on this big exhibit, and a rare book goes missing. And she's drawn into a series of book thefts that occurred 80 years ago as well as a terrible tragedy that happened to the superintendent's family back then. And what I do is I really like to find things that really happened in the past and use them as my framework and then drape a fictional story on them. And so that's what I did with the apartment inside the building as well as the book theft that occurs in the novel.

Mindy:             Was there a specific reason why 1993? 

Fiona:              You know, the book theft that I that I draped my story on actually occurred in 1994 at Columbia University's Butler Library, and I needed to keep it around there just because of the way book thieves were treated back then in terms of their sentences after they got caught, as well as making sure that there's not so much technology like the Internet or cell phones that interfere with my plot line.

Mindy:             I've often tried to explain to people that the advanced technology of cell phone and everybody basically having a small GPS on them at all times makes it very, very difficult to write thrillers set in the modern day. The first thing you have to do is get rid of their phones 

Fiona:              That’s exactly right. And it really messes with the plot, if someone could make a phone call from wherever they are and solve the problem. You need all these issues in order to make it work, right?

Mindy:             Exactly. So you either have to have no cell service, which pretty much demands geographical setting, or a dead battery. And in that case, you're kind of taking forethought and agency away from your character. So yeah, it is difficult. I'd like to talk a little bit about the secret apartment inside of the library, because that is just fascinating. If you could share some of that information. 

Fiona:              As a writer, you know, I do a lot of research, and I just wait for things to hit me. And that's where I know I'm headed in the right direction. And for this I was researching New York Public Library and thinking, OK, can I set a story there? And I learned about this apartment that the superintendent's family lived in for 30 years. His daughter was born in the library. The kids used to play baseball using books is bases in the reading room. And there were so many great aspects to this that I thought would work in a book where I could take that setting and then create a fictional family, which is what I did, and so that they can, you know, get into all kinds of trouble, which is what you want your characters to do. You want them to have obstacles to fight against.

But the apartment just made it the perfect setting, and it was there for 30 years, and then it was turned into offices and storage, and I was lucky enough to get a behind the scenes tour of it and just get a sense of what the layout was and you know that it overlooked the courtyard and how big the windows were just all those details that helped to make the setting of the book really kind of fly off the page. 

Mindy:             That sounds like a dream, dream home, a dream apartment inside of a public library. That that's pretty cool. I would like that. 

Fiona:              Yes, a lot of people would, Which is where I thought. Okay, this setting, this will be the setting. This is perfect. 

Mindy:             Yeah, absolutely. So when setting a book in 1913, partially in 1913, I think it's interesting to talk a little bit about your research methods. I know you said that you're waiting for something to grab you and I'm similar. I read a lot of non fiction and every now and then something will just pique my interest. I'm like, what? I need to learn more about that. And then just because my mind works in a fictional manner, as you were saying, I'll try to put the cloak of fiction over these facts in order to get this shape of a novel, and I think that a lot of historical novelists that I know operate in this way. But how do you find that first nugget of inspiration? Do you just read widely and wait for something to grab you?

Fiona:              You know, I have some wonderful connections here in New York City where I live, who are experts in architectural history in the history of New York. And so, for example, this book I met with someone named Andrew Alpern, and he's an amazing architectural historian who has lived in New York for decades and really knows the city and has almost this photographic memory of the streets of New York and the buildings of New York. And before I write any book, I meet him for lunch. And so we met and I was talking about the library. That was where he said, You know, I was saying I might do something about book thefts and he said, Well, you should look into Jean Ashton and I thought, Well, who's that?

And it turns out, Jean Ashton is a librarian in Columbia University at the Butler Library there. She was, the librarian in the 1990s, when this terrible book theft occurred over three months. Thieves stole $1.8 million of rare books and manuscripts, and no one could figure out how this person was getting in and out. And I was able to interview her a couple times to find out about what it was like, what the detail was like. And how are you stressed at that time? And what did you do to try and help? And it turns out that after the thief was caught and he was caught, she went before the judge and asked him to give a harsher sentence because, she said, you know, he didn't just steal a book of X number of pages worth X. But a piece of Western history and culture and the libraries are safe keeping these artifacts of the past and their value fluctuates.

And so you can't just say, Well, it's worth this much because something that wasn't valued, you know, 100 years ago like women's diaries, are now very valuable because our way of thinking has evolved. And it turns out the judge granted her wish and made the sentence harsher and later a law was passed that protected cultural heritage resources. And so you can see I was kind of led down this path of a story that just unfolded in real life but was so inspiring. I thought, I have to get that on the page in some way, and it's really just following all those threads from one to another. But starting with reaching out to real people, I think you know reading and the Internet is great, but it's the experts in the field that for me, brings it to life. 

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Mindy:             Something that is particularly interesting about the two time periods that you have in the Lions of Fifth Avenue is setting. The one story is, you said, is set in 1993 because of the theft that occurred during those times, but also we've reached a point now and I think that it's can be a particular stumbling block for historical novelists when you're writing about the nineties. It is, in fact now historical setting. But it's also recent in the minds of many readers like myself. So I was in high school and in college in the nineties. So you can write a 1913 section of your book and I read it, and I accept, of course, trust that you have gotten everything right. But when you're working in very recent history, you're working in time periods that your readers have more than likely lived through. Are there any particular challenges in that and writing very recent history? 

Fiona:              You know, I've set books in the seventies and eighties and the nineties. It's true. They're sort of historical, but not quite. And it does help that I was in New York in the late eighties and nineties, and so that helps because I do remember what the city was like then. And I do remember, um, where people were going and CBGBs and all the hot spots and that kind of thing. Um, but yeah, you have to make sure if you do talk about any kind of relevant culture, something that happened or something political that happened, you just have to make sure you get those dates right and and that it's right, because yeah, otherwise you will hear from readers.

Mindy:             Yes, yes, you will. And the experience to, what I think is particularly, can be particularly challenging in modern day, is that, as you were saying, you will hear from readers like readers will let you know if you make a mistake or what they feel is a mistake. But culture is so geographically mandated. So, for example, I wrote a book about addiction. Fiction, a novel about the opioid crisis, and I was using the experiences of people here where I live, which is in the Midwest and then speaking with counselors and doctors here in the Midwest.

And especially drug culture, some of the language and the slang was very different from what it was like in more urban areas, and I think sometimes that is an element that people may not necessarily take into consideration is that there's little micro niches of culture occasionally that are based on geography. And so I think that occasionally when you're writing something that is partly historical, but also with a very particular setting. So, for example, New York City you were there. You had the experience of New York City's in the nineties. I had the experience of Columbus, Ohio, in the nineties, and those are gonna be two very different things. So how do you balance if you do get critical feedback on an element like that? As an author, how do you process that? 

Fiona:              What you want to do is serve the story, and so I think it's OK to play around a little bit if, if you know a slang that's used in Columbus, Ohio, is different from one somewhere else, I think it's okay. So long as you're not altering major facts, I think it's okay to play and again serve the story and serve your characters. And I always in the author's note make sure if there's if there are any discrepancies or if I took any liberties to mention them, so that okay, here's you know, here's the specifics. Here's what's real. And here what’s not so that readers can understand kind of how, how the fact and fiction or balanced in the story.

Mindy:             I do think too, It's always important to remember that we are, in fact writing fiction. So occasionally we have to massage some things in order to make them work. So, for example, what I'm working on right now, which is slated for publication in 2022 which listeners that aren't writers- we’re usually working about a year to a year and a half ahead of time. So when a novelist talks about their current project, you'll see it in about a year and a half, maybe two years. And that's if they write fast.

But writing something that is particularly of the moment, for example when I was writing about the opioid crisis that also can become dated very quickly. Also any cultural references while they're useful to place someone in a point of time if you're writing something that you want to feel contemporary. But I write for teens and what is considered popular or hot is very much not that three months later. So if I had been writing a book, you know, five years ago or even 10 years ago and I mentioned Justin Bieber, they would be like Oh, my gosh, this is awesome! And if they read my book now, they’re really very not impressed, and I appear to be someone that has no idea what's actually popular and going on. So from the historical perspective, of course, as you're saying, you do have to do what is going to fit the story best, but I personally really pull back if it's a contemporary story from making any kind of TV, movie, video game or music references within the story simply because it will date it as little as six months from now.

Fiona:              I think you're right with the young adult. It’s better to avoid any reference because, like you said, it changes so fast. Yeah, I have great respect for young adult writers. I think there's so many challenges there that you don't have in the adult market in terms of keeping current and not turning off your audience you know with dated references. I that is such a tricky balance. 

Mindy:             The other thing I wanted to talk to you about then was, when you do have something that you have to massage a little bit in order to fit your plot because there are times when the plot is asking for something that you need to have that wasn’t necessarily historical fact. So, for example, Sharon Kay Penman is an amazing author. She writes about nobility in England and France, and she will have a meticulous author's note in the back where she says, You know, I have Elizabeth being at this location at this time. That's not actually accurate. She was here. But in order to make the, you know, the plot move forward, I had to switch her location for that Christmas or whatever the case may be. Do you as a historical novelist, how do you weigh plot and structure of the novel versus actual facts that may trip up what you need for the fiction?

Fiona:              Usually it's pretty easy for me because I'm not tying it into things that are occurring in the world or if they are, they're mentioned in passing. The only issue I had was when I wrote the Chelsea Girls, which is about the Chelsea Hotel and set in the McCarthy era, and so is set in a time when there was so much politically going on, and the plot of the book is tied to the trials of people who were accused of being Communists and the Korean War and all of these things. And that made it really tricky because I needed to play around with the plot, but I could not move the things that actually occurred in the year 1950. And I’m so glad I did it because I think that story was an important one to be told. But I was pulling my hair out at times. So for me, I, I prefer to have more of a loose story about family interactions or women trying to make their way in the world that I can, I can play with and are flexible in terms of what time of year or what year it's happening in. 

Mindy:             I think when you're working in more of the domestic setting, you have those freedoms that you can then, uh, expand into larger setting that people are going to me be more familiar with, as you know, students of history. I also wanted to talk to you about just writing strong women and writing strong characters in times when women weren't necessarily regarded as being strong, although I think that might actually be a little bit of historical, a jaded perception where we look back from today and think of women in 1913. You know, they were housewives and they only had a certain amount of respect. And that's not necessarily true. You can find any number of women who are being upheld and applauded for various things throughout history. But in the, as you were saying more of the domestic setting, I think sometimes we have a prescriptive way of looking at the past and that women and their lives without having those domestic settings without having those experiences or those stories. So can you talk a little bit about the importance of those, about writing historical women in that domestic setting that have strength in their lives and respect?

Fiona:              I'm drawn to women who are out of step with their time. And so, for example, the character Laura in the book gets involved in something called the Heterodoxy Club, which was a club that actually existed in Greenwich Village. It was started in 1912 and they were bi weekly meetings where women would meet above a restaurant on MacDougal Street and talk about the issues of the day and debate and have wide ranging discussions about things like the right to vote or birth control, women's rights, even free love. You know, which we think. Well, they weren't talking about till the sixties. No, they were talking about it in the 1910’s. And the Heterodoxy Club attracted icons like Agnes de Mille and Charlotte Perkins Gilman. And so, by putting my character in that group, her mind can really be expanded in terms of what's possible for women.

And there's another character in the book who's based on a woman named S. Josephine Baker, who was the first director of the New York City Bureau of Child Hygiene and really pioneered the idea of public health and health education in the early 1900’s. And saved so many Children, so many of their lives because, you know, she would go into the tenements and teach moms that no, you should not give your baby beer, you know? And things that we take for granted today. So these were pioneers and I love to capture them on the page and create characters that are inspired by them. So we can really see that, you know, back then, women were really having debates and that these things are cycles and they change over time.

Mindy:             Lastly, would you like to share where readers can find you online? And I know you have a pretty extensive virtual tour going on. If you could talk a little bit about where some of those materials are going to be, what you have going on and where people can find the book. 

Fiona:              And I have to say on tour I love questions about the process and about writing. I'm so yeah, please find me. I can be found at Fiona Davis.net And there's an events page there, with a dozen or so virtual events that anyone can join in on where we'll be talking about writing and the Lions of Fifth Avenue. And thank you so much for this opportunity. This was great.

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.