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Mindy: We're here today with Crystal Swain Bates. She is a celebrated Children's book author and she's the owner of Goldest Karat Publishing, which she founded in order to address the lack of diversity in Children's literature. She's written and published 12 Children's books which have been seen on platforms including CNN, and Huffington Post. Her book, Big Hair Don't Care is one of Amazon's most highly reviewed black Children's books on the market. 

So one of the things I really want to talk to you about, because I think it's important is that at this point, I would hope that there is at least an awareness in the publishing community and in the larger, broader world that there is a need to address the issue of encouraging diversity in the publishing industry. It's become something that we talk about to an extent that I think people may not realize that we need to continue talking about it. This isn't a one and done - let's have the conversation and put a bandaid on it. So, I'd really like for you if you could talk about why this is a continuing conversation. 

Crystal: That's a really good question, because it has been at least a decade that people have been talking about the need for a greater diversity in Children's literature and although there have been articles about it, although there are some black books on the market, there still are not a lot and it's for so many different reasons. Although a lot more people have been able to use self publishing as an avenue to publish books that are more diverse, when you self publish, it's very hard to get your books actually sold in stores. You want your book to be widely available to people, you want your book to have the same status as a lot of the other books that are out there. So what I've been seeing is that a lot of the mainstream publishers, while they may have increased a little bit, the publishing of books that feature black characters, it's very much something it seems like they do just so they can hit the numbers and say, See, we published this one book, we published one book with one black character, so you should be happy. 

And the thing is, we are so far behind in Children's literature when it comes to diversity, that one book is not enough. We need books that hit on all sorts of subjects and topics that Children experience. Something as simple as potty training, something as simple as I'm a big Brother, I'm a big sister. I published a book in a I’m Big Sister and Big Brother series and people were in the Amazon Reviews so blown away saying, wow, I've never been able to find a book with a black character that talked about becoming a big brother or big sister and it seems so basic. But the way that the traditional publishers are publishing books and just doing one or two and feeling like they fulfilled that need, really reflects the reason it's still needed. 

We haven't had enough books that have been published. We don't have enough indie publishers who are being picked up by the traditional publishers - people who've had success, including myself, someone who's had so much success self publishing. So many people love my books. I've never once had a traditional publisher reach out to me and say, Hey, I'm really loving what you've been doing. I would love to get you to do some additional books for our publishing company. 

Mindy: It's so true. What you're saying about for instance, those little corners of life, like I'm a big brother, I'm a big sister, I'm the little sister. I was a Children's librarian for about 14 years. And one of the things I did for the district was I rehauled the way the entire elementary library was organized. It needed a lot of help and I went in there and just took everything off the shelves and redid the entire thing. One of the things that I ended up doing was creating a section that was for some special moments in life. So there were books like my parents are getting divorced, my grandmother died. My best friend moved away. I have to get glasses. I have to get braces. My dog died... any life moment. And those aren't just happening to white kids. Right? So I think it's so important. 

We talk a lot about Children needing to see themselves represented in literature, but you're right about that band Aid where it's like the traditional publishing model, they release so many books a season and very much they are still leaning on the, well we have our black book for this season. We have our indian book, we have it, you know, check box. The kid that has to worry about their weight and not have a book that shows themselves as a Black kid or an Indian kid or whatever their skin color is, to have the book that is about what their particular issue is and to have the character look like them. I can't even imagine the weight, the immense good that that would do for a child. 

Crystal: Absolutely. I've talked a lot about the invisibility of Black Children and Children's books and it really makes a difference. It really stands out in ways that as adults, we might not realize. An example of that is I have a book called I'm a Pretty Princess. Now, I wrote this book because it's pretty hard to find Black Princess and it is very hard to find black princess books. And the thing is when you don't have very many black princesses or any at all, that kids get to see. Guess what? They end up thinking that they can't be a princess. 

So I had a parent reach out to me, she was very upset. She said that she bought her daughter my book and she's reading it with her and her daughter is like, no, this can't be me, I can't be a pretty princess. You know, her mom's like, hyping her up, like, Oh look at you, you know, you're pretty princess too! And she says, I can't be a princess. And her mom says, well why? And she says, because I'm not white. 

That is what it does when kids don't get to see themselves in books. And of course, I mean, a princess, you know, there are real life princesses, but even if you take that to something that's more real life, more realistic and you look at something like careers. Okay, what about black characters that are doctors and nurses, or engineers or astronauts? The President? When you don't get to see these things, you automatically feel like if you're not seeing it is because I can't be it. You know, maybe this profession, maybe this happiness, this joy that I see kids having in these other books is limited to them. And it doesn't extend to me because I'm black or because I'm whatever, right? So that's why it's so important. 

And kids really do realize when they see these books, they see skin color, you know? They might not even be able to express what they're seeing, but they do see it and they see differences. Kids see colors, they see differences at a very early age. It's something that's so important to me and I really struggle with trying to explain it to people because there is a percentage of the population that is very anti the types of books that I'm writing. 

I have received hate mail over my books. I had an Amazon commercial that was nationally televised and it was all over the place. It got so many views. And the commercial shows me, you know, this was Amazon highlighting a small business that sells on Amazon. So the commercial shows me and I'm showing my books and I say that I write books that normalize Black girl Magic, and black boy joy. I get literally, I mean every time I open my email there was someone saying, oh you shouldn't be writing books with black characters, You should write books with all characters. You shouldn't be making race an issue. Whereas in none of my books is Race even mentioned. It's just a black character just being black and living their lives, right? 

So I got so much hate mail. And even on my Youtube channel, whenever I talk about my books, there's someone that comes along and they say that race is no longer important. I should not be writing black Children's books. Books that make sure that there is a black character, you know, at the start. And the thing is where were you, when all of these books were created that had nothing but white characters, you weren't saying anything. Then you weren't saying oh all Children matter. All colors matter. You didn't say anything until you saw me publishing books with black characters and you felt a way about it. So it's very difficult.

I completely understand why from a financial perspective you have a lot of the mainstream publishers who don't want to publish a whole bunch of books with black characters. It's because they don't want to publish these books and not get a lot of sales. In my experience, white people don't buy books with black characters. When you go into a bookstore, first of all, the way that they even place our books to begin with is in an African American section or an urban section. And it's very much removed from the rest of the books. So you have to actually intentionally wander over to that section to find a book with the black character. They're not just aligned with the rest of the books on the bookshelf in the genre appropriate section. They're put in their own little section. It tells people that, oh I don't need to buy this book unless I am Black or unless it's Black history month and I want to do something special for my school or you know. And that's a big part of the issue. So the sales of black books are not going to be as high because again, if only 12 or 13% of the population will purchase a book, you're already doomed. 

That's one of the really big difficulties that we still have to overcome. I've seen this happen in real life when I was vending my books. I used to do a lot of shows, a lot of exhibits and things like that where I would take my books and I would sell them at festivals and things. I saw a white father and his two kids, a boy and a girl. And the kids are looking at my table because I have a beautiful display with all of my books and they can tell it’s Children's books. So the kids are like, daddy daddy and they're trying to pull him over to my table. He looks and he sees - I assume that the books have black characters and he pulls them away, like he doesn't let them come over to the table. I've read an article about a woman who bought a baby book, right? That had a black character on it and took it to a white woman, her friend, her friend's baby shower and the lady looked at her like she was crazy. Like why would you buy my white baby this black baby book? 

So we still have a lot to overcome. We really still have to make it known that Children need to be reading books with all characters, all colors. It shouldn't just be that you're only buying books in the same way that black parents buy Children's books that have both white and black characters. And a lot of it is out of default because it's very difficult to even find black Children's books in the first place. Everyone should be reading books with characters that don't look like them, characters that do and that don't. They need to get that perspective so that when kids go to school and they meet other kids they're not so fascinated with - So why does your skin this color? Why does your hair look like that? Kids, they only do that because they're not used to seeing other kids that don't look like them. So when you create an environment in your household where all of your reading literature is of characters that look like your child, you're actually doing them a disservice and it's something that carries on throughout their lives as well. 

Mindy: I just particularly want to talk about, like you were saying, the father who pulled his kids away from your table, like, no, that's not for you. That instant othering is so harmful. And I'm not sure that people realize that even having that separate section in the bookstore, some people - white people particularly - might look at it and be like, oh look, that's great. There's a whole section for Black kids. It's like, no, they should just be in with regular books. Like there is a section for Black kids, maybe the intent is celebratory, but it's still pure and total segregation and that is affecting discoverability. 

Crystal: Exactly. 

Mindy: I mean, I am in the publishing industry, so I'm aware of what's being published and what's out and what's new and what's been done, typically in the YA sector. That's where I operate. I know very, very little about what's going on in Children's publishing. And that's kind of how publishing works, you’re active in usually one area. So when I am going to buy, for example, a book for a baby shower… which one of the things that people do now, which I think is really cool, is that instead of bringing a card, they ask for a book and to write message for the baby or the mom inside of the book and kind of to build a library for the infant, which I think is super cool. 

But when this happens when I'm invited to a baby shower, I don't know what the hot books are right now in Children's publishing. So I'm going to walk into the Barnes and Noble or whatever and I'm going to go back to the Children's section and it's pure discoverability where I'm standing there browsing and I'm going to be exposed to all of these books for the first time. So you're totally right. There is a section for white books and the Black books, I as a white person, would more than likely be buying a book for a white mother. I'm just going to go towards those books. But if the books are all in one place and it's just - these are books for Children, they're all going to be in front of me and I have the literal discoverability of being like, oh look at this one, right? And that child then grows up with a book showing kids of different colors and just like you're saying, don't have to be surprised when they go into the real world and see people that don't look like them. It's just that representation is so important in the growth of that child that it can't be overstated. 

Crystal: Exactly. 

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Crystal: This is a subject I'm so passionate about and it does make me sad because I feel like this is a fight that's been going on for so long and even when it comes to doing interviews and podcasts, this is something that I talk about a lot and you know, honestly sometimes I feel like, gosh, I'm tired of talking about this. Like I want to talk about it because it's still needed. But why do I still have to talk about the lack of diversity in Children's books? It's very frustrating. 

I have a facebook group of predominantly women and largely underrepresented women. When it comes to publishing, the group is open to everyone, but the people who tend to join do tend to be black women because they see me and I am a black woman. So one of the things that I see is right now, I've taught them how to publish books, how to write and publish their own Children's books. And I am so blown away by them because a lot of those gaps that we talked about, they are filling those gaps. So, you know, they're writing books about autism and these books have black characters. They're writing books about various diseases and cancer and depression and going to the dentist and just the things that we don't get to see when you go into a bookstore. 

But I feel like, okay, I've taught them how to do this, they're doing it and they're doing it well. But how can I get, how can I help increase the discoverability of their books? Because it's not enough to just write the book. Write the book, but how do you get it in front of the people who need to see it? So it's something that I struggle with because there's no easy way to find these books, even once they're online if they're on amazon or if they're sold an independent bookstores that may or may not pick them up, it still becomes a matter of, you know, a lot of parents are still having difficulties finding the books because when they go to the bookstore as a lot of people do, they're not seeing them. 

I would love to see a change. And even the bookstores, you know, maybe there is a mission to really focus on indie publishers. And all right, we've got this black book section. Maybe we just have an independent publisher section where now you can find books that maybe you wouldn't typically find in the store because they're not traditionally published, but they're very high quality, very excellent books. And now you have a means to discover some of these books that you wouldn't have found otherwise. 

Mindy: So true. It's an uphill battle and you've got two hills there because, I'm familiar with indie publishing and how very very very difficult it is to get eyeballs on your book. It literally is just a matter of in some cases money, you gotta spend money to make money, but you can dump money into ads and it can help, but a lot of people don't have the ability to do that upfront. And that's a major key, especially for an indie author or a self published author to grow awareness. Because like you're saying they don't have a space in your traditional bookstore. 

The other part of your battle there in just making these books visible is of course the race question, but also it's so difficult to market. You're not targeting the Children themselves, you are targeting the parents, librarians, educators. It's very, very hard in terms of tweaking and ads, knowing where to put your ad space, things like that. When it comes to indie publishing and Children's indie publishing, you're not even marketing directly to your readers, a kid. You don't have that moment where a kid sees something and says Mommy Daddy or look I want this. That's what drives parents spending when the kid says, I want this. What a difficult space to be in. 

Crystal: It's very difficult. And you mentioned ads and even when you look at buying ads, let's say they're for Facebook or they’re for Amazon or wherever they are. You have another difficulty there because a lot of these pay per play, a lot of these ads, companies are not letting you, they're no longer letting you target your audience by race.

Mindy: Really?? 

Crystal: Mm hmm. Yeah. So Facebook used to let you target by race. People were using it for nefarious means. You know there's always somebody doing something horrible, right? There are kind of ways to get around it by just targeting magazines or things that you think a black person might read, right? Or tv shows you think only black people will watch. There are some ways that you can kind of get around it. But because of that it makes it even more difficult to target the actual audience that is more likely to purchase. So you don't want to just run ads and waste clicks or run ads and end up getting, you know, the negative comments from the non black people who are like how dare you publish a book with the black character, you know? So even running ads can be difficult. 

It's very tough. It really is and it's something I've been trying to figure out for myself. You know what is the best way? This is something I'm actively tackling. What is the best way, what will resonate the most to get these books greater discoverability? Honestly, it's very stressful. But I am happy that we do have more and more people who are publishing books and who are publishing books with black characters. Even if they are independent publishers, the books still exist and that's half the battle. And now it's just getting people to know that these books exist and then going from there. 

Mindy: Do you have any aspirations for reaching out to the larger publishing industry, the traditional Big Five? Or have you just found that those particular doors and windows aren't as perhaps open as they should be? 

Crystal: So I don't have any aspirations of reaching out. If one of the Big Five were to reach out to me, then I would be very happy to discuss whatever they wanted to discuss and see where we could go from there. But for me, when I look at what they're publishing, that pretty much tells me all I need to know. It tells me that they're not interested in publishing the quantity of diverse books that should be on the market. And I'm not one to beg for a seat at the table. I'm going to make my own table, right? I don't even want to sit at the table. I don't want to bring a chair, I'm just gonna build my own table. 

And so that's what I've done. It's been going extremely well. And I think that's one of the things a lot of people don't realize is that self publishing now is something that you can do and you can be very successful at. Yes, it does take work, but you can actually earn a very nice living by self publishing. So you don't have to be so worried about, let's say you did try to get your manuscript picked up and it never did get picked up. Well, okay, have you ever considered self publishing your book? Because a lot of the books that we write, our books are so important and books that can can really and truly change lives and have an impact. So, I hate hearing about people who are so afraid of self publishing because oh, it's not a real book or it's not considered to be as important or as high quality as the others. I hate that people let that bias hold them back from actually putting out the book that they wrote and that could actually change lives. 

Mindy: I agree, completely. Self publishing has changed dramatically. There is still some bias out there. But 10, 15 years ago, very much the concept of self publishing was that these were the people that couldn't make it. That wasn't true then, and it's certainly not true now. You can find some really great stuff. And unfortunately, like we talked about, that is where you might find more of the multicultural and the representation. Because some big five publishers, if not all, are maybe just ticking a box when they're releasing their winter titles or their spring titles. And you've got your one black kids book for this season. In the meantime, there are probably a proliferation of them out there, self published, indie published online. 

You were talking about doing festivals. So, tell me a little bit about that. Like with your publishing company, Goldest Karat publishing, Is that a shingle for your own books? You mentioned you have a Facebook page that you help encourage other authors to get their Children's books with diversity out into the world and to be created in the first place. Do you accept submissions or is that a shingle for your own titles? 

Crystal: So, it started out that I would accept submissions. I published my first book through Goldest Karat Publishing, and then I published a couple of other books from a professor at Howard University. Then I decided that I didn't like it. I decided that I didn't like it because when you publish someone else now, you need to Take royalties right? A pretty significant amount of royalties. It ends up being like around 40 or 50% or sometimes higher. 

And what I didn't like about that was one, of course you're fronting all the expenses of publication. But if your author is not doing any work to really promote the books, then you can end up losing money. It just seems very, very risky. So, like, they end up with the book, but you might not actually end up recouping your investment. And then of course, the part about having to maintain for the rest of my life, having to track royalties and send a royalty check. 

And especially at the time, because I guess this was around probably around 2014 that I took on a client and published their book. And at that time there was really no good royalty tracking system. Everything was very outdated, nothing was automated, you know, where you can just connect to Paypal and send out the money or whatever. So I shut that down. Now, Goldest Karat publishing is basically what I use for all of my own books. 

So then after that, I decided, okay, I'm not going to actually run a publishing company where people publish through my company. Now, I'm going to help people self publish through their own company. What that looked like is people would send me their manuscript, they would hire me to bring their book to life, but then their book would be uploaded and sold online and they would get to maintain 100% of their royalties. There was no cut. Like after the book was out, that was it. I did that for a few years, very successfully published a lot of people's books. And it was good, until it wasn't. Because it's something that you can't really scale. It’s very hard to have so many different clients and you're dealing with so many different illustrators and client expectations. And so in 2020, I took my last client and pretty much wrapped them up around the end of the year. 

So what I do now, I basically teach other people how to do the process that I did, that clients paid me to do, right? So instead of you having to pay me $4500 to publish your children's book, I'm going to teach you how to do this entire process yourself. So instead of you paying me, you can save that money and then you can get your book published for much less than that if you need to. It's all based on different people's budgets. But I find that that made it more accessible for people Who maybe didn't have $4500. 

The other thing is I encourage people to publish as many books as possible. That's how you get to the real money in publishing. It's not by publishing one book, it's by publishing numerous books. And so for me, the thought of someone having to pay me thousands of dollars for every single book that they wanted to publish. I didn't like it, it just didn't sit well with me. 

So that's when I created this group and started doing things like free challenges. And that's how I got a lot of people into the group, as I would do these free challenges and I would teach them for five days for free, the step by step process to publishing their book. And then after that if they wanted to take my course, get more information, more advanced information they could. But a lot of people have been publishing off of the free content that I provide. So that makes me really happy. Out of all the different means that I've tried as far as working in the publishing industry. This is my favorite way of empowering women to publish their own books on their own terms. 

Mindy: That's awesome. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I also do freelance editing on the side. I have a single where I help people just with the actual content of novels. It's funny to me how connected you can feel to the work once you've been in it, even though it's not yours. There are times when I'll be working with someone and they'll ask me like, you know, would you look at this again and you know, it's not cheap. And so there are times when I feel bad taking people's money, but you know, at the same time obviously this is a business that I am trying to make a living off of. Last thing, why don't you share with us, specifically the Facebook group, how to find it, what the name is, how to join. But then also where people can find you online and where listeners can find your books. 

Crystal: Sure. So, well I have a long name, so I'm going to apologize in advance for that. All of my books can be found, my handle everywhere is @CSwainBates. So I'll spell it. It's C S W A I N B A T E S. It's my first initial and my last name without the hyphen. 

Now I did make it easier for my Facebook group. The group is called Six Figure Self Publishing Secrets. And you can actually access it easily by just typing in Crystal on FB - Facebook. Crystal on FB and that group will pop right up. So far, we're at over 6000 members strong, it’s very exciting to be in the group. And if you're interested in finding any of my courses you can find those at publish with Crystal dot com. 

Mindy: That all sounds wonderful. I am sitting here thinking about what your workday must look like and I'm sure it is overwhelming.

Crystal: My work day... It really can be a lot. But I feel like there's author Crystal Swain Bates, book coach and motivator publishing expert Crystal Swain Bates. There's diversity, Publishing pro Crystal Swain Bates, to write all these things and talk to all these people about publishing and diversity and then there's entrepreneur Crystal Swain Bates because I'm always kind of working on something new. So it can be a lot to do. But the thing is when you love what you're doing, none of it feels like work. My days could be busy, but it doesn't feel like work, it just feels like, well I have lots of things on my calendar today, but I love it, I love it, I love it. And seeing the impact for me is really what makes it all worth it.

Mindy: Writer Writer Pants on Fire is produced by Mindy McGinnis. Music by Jack Korbel. Don't forget to check out the blog for additional interviews, writing advice and publication tips at Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com. If the blog or podcast have been helpful to you or if you just enjoy listening, please consider donating. Visit Writer Writer Pants on Fire dot com and click “support the blog and podcast” in the sidebar.